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Does anyone have any detailed info on a 43 flag composed of a 13 star circle surrounding a large star composed of 32 stars completed with clusters of stars in ...
  1. #1
    zoradode is offline Junior Member
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    Default 43 star circular / star pattern

    Does anyone have any detailed info on a 43 flag composed of a 13 star circle surrounding a large star composed of 32 stars completed with clusters of stars in the corner (3 in 3 corners and 2 in one). The flag is wool bunting and the pattern is machine printed and was produced by Horsman of Philadelphia? Any suggestion of its value? Apparently it was produced to honor Idaho as the 43rd state on July3, 1890 and was produced for a very short period as Wyoming became the 44th state on July 10, 1890.

  2. #2
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    Greetings, zoradode !

    Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site Forums !


    Would you be kind enough to post some pictures of your 43 Star Flag here ???

    Something along the lines of a photo of the entire flag, and perhaps some "close ups" of the Stars and the needlework of the Stripes ???

    Also, I must confess that I'm having some trouble "doing the math" while following your written description of your Flag.

    QUOTE : "Does anyone have any detailed info on a 43 flag composed of a 13 star circle surrounding a large star composed of 32 stars completed with clusters of stars in the corner (3 in 3 corners and 2 in one)."

    I keep coming up with 56 Stars instead of 43.

    13 + 32 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 = 56

    See ???

    Some photos of your 43 Star Flag would REALLY help me out !


    Anyway, Thank you for bringing your Flag-related question to our Forums !

    Robin Hickman

    PS. I'm really looking forward to seeing pictures of your Flag, and I'm willing to bet there are some other members here who are looking forward to seeing them too !!!
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  3. #3
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    Hello, Zoradode !

    Thanx for the e-mail!

    The photos will REALLY help! We have two or three resident "experts" on the USA-Flag-Site Forums (I'm NOT one of them!) that would DEFINITELY be interested in seeing photos of your Flag!

    The Flag "experts" who would be of most assistance to you are Peter Ansoff, NAVA1974, and American_Flag_UK. There could very well be more Flag "experts" on these forums, but I haven't been around long enough to know who they are !

    Since the 43 Star Flag was only in use ("officially") for one year, July 04, 1890 to July 3, 1891, you would think that it would be pretty rare. I don't know if it would be QUITE as rare as we might think because there were FIVE STATES that joined the Union in one year! So I'm sure there was a LOT of interest in the NEW Flag (at least in those five states!).

    Also, due to the fact that there was NO "Official" Government design pattern of the stars at that time (I think), there are MANY different variations on how the 43 Stars were arranged! Throughout the latter half of the 19th Century there were all kinds of "creative" star patterns used, including a number of "Great Star" and "Circle" patterns!

    I Googled the phrase, "Horsmann Philadelphia" that you mentioned in your e-mail and in your forum entry. That particular phrase didn't really turn up anything, but Google offered an "alternative" search phrase of "Horstmann Philadelphia" (with a "t"). THAT had almost 500 pages returned. Evidently, the "Horstmann Co." of Philadelphia, PA, manufactured a variety of items for the U. S. Government!

    I also tried to find some pictures of 43 Star Flags but they all pretty much looked the same :



    So, NO help there !

    Good Luck with the photos !!!

    Robin Hickman
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  4. #4
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    Hey, Zoradode !


    I couldn't find any "interesting" 43 Star patterns, but here are a couple of 38 Star pattern Flags from Flickr. One of them was posted by NAVA1974!

    Unlike 43 Star Flags that were around for only one year, the 38 Star Flags had a nice long "run" of 13 years! These are just to give you an idea of how "creative" some Flagmakers were back in the 19th Century !!!

    This one is NAVA1974's :

    38StarFlag-NickA-21045.jpg


    And this one was posted on Flickr.com by "AMY" :

    38StarFlag-AmyOnFLIKR.jpg


    So as you can see, flagmakers could get pretty creative !

    BTW : One of my all time favorite American Flags was created back in 1876 to commemorate the United States of America's Centennial celebration. The stars in the Union were configured so that they read as the year 1776 was over the year 1876!




    NOTE : NAVA1974 has one of these on his Flickr page, but since I've already "nicked" one of his to use here, I just copied this "generic" graphic from CRW Flags [ http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/u/us-1876c.gif ].

    Shhhhhhhhhhhh.................. Don't tell anybody !!!

    Robin Hickman

    PS. If you count the Stars in the Union of the "Centennial Flag", you'll notice that there are more (a LOT more!) stars there than we had States at that, or this, time !!!
    Last edited by Robin Hickman; 06-02-2009 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Added VERY Important PS. !!!
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  5. #5
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    HEY, ZORADODE !!!

    I just found some interesting looking 42 Star Flags over at Antiques Image Archive !!!

    http://www.antiquesimagearchive.com/items/flags.html


    Scroll down to "Flag; US, 42 Stars...", which is about 80% of the way down the page.

    Flag; US, 42-Stars, Circular Star Pattern, Stenciled Linen, 3 ft.

    42Star-Circle.jpg


    Flag; US, 42-Stars, Circular Stars, Printed Cotton, Parade, 13 inch.

    42Star-Medallion.jpg


    Do EITHER of them even remotely resemble YOUR Flag ???


    Robin Hickman
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  6. #6
    zoradode is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    Enclosed are photos of a 43 star wool bunting flag with brass eyelits which is machine printed. The flag has 26 small stars positioned to create a larger star. This star is surrounded by a ring of 13 stars depicting our original 13 star flag. Finally the corner have clumps of stars with 3 in three corners and 2 in the final corner. The flag is imprinted Horstmann Philadelphia. I believe it is a flag celebrating Idaho's entrance in the Union in July 3, 1890. Jessica Hack has seen this flag. Does anyone have any further thoughts?

  7. #7
    NAVA1974 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    Hi zoradode,
    Haven't seen the photos yet. But you said "The flag has 26 small stars positioned to create a larger star. This star is surrounded by a ring of 13 stars depicting our original 13 star flag. Finally the corner have clumps of stars with 3 in three corners and 2 in the final corner."

    26+13+3+3+3+2=50? Or are we double counting some of the stars??

  8. #8
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    .
    Hello, Everybody !

    Zoradode was unable to post the pictures as they were WAY too big, and (I suspect) he probably didn't know "how" to post pics here. So, he sent them to me.

    I'm in the process of shrinking them "down to size". In the meantime, I can at least tell you what the star pattern looks like.

    There ARE 56 stars total. There are 13 LARGE stars and 43 SMALL stars.

    The 13 LARGE stars are arranged in the familiar Betsy Ross "Circle" ("New Constellation"). Of the 43 small stars, 32 are INSIDE the circle and 11 are OUTSIDE the circle.

    INSIDE the 13 Star Circle there are 32 SMALL stars. 30 of the small stars are arranged in the outline of a 5-pointed star. the other TWO small stars are INSIDE the star, arranged side-by-side just above the star's "waistline".

    The remaining 11 SMALL stars are OUTSIDE of the "Circle" made of the 13 LARGE Stars.

    The 11 SMALL stars are arranged as follows: there are THREE-star clusters in the upper-left, upper-right, and lower-right corners of the HORIZONTAL canton (Union), and a TWO-star cluster in the lower-left corner. So when you see the horizontal canton, starting in the upper left-hand corner and going clockwise, the star clusters are enumerated as follows: 3, 3, 3, and 2 (=11).

    I'll be right back. I have to go put Zoradode's pictures in the "Shrinky-Dink" machine and see if I can "downsize" them to post here.

    (If you are of a "certain age" and old enough to know what "Shrinky Dinks" were, then you probably just smiled!)

    BRB !

    Robin Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  9. #9
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    .
    GREETINGS !!!

    Here are copies (smaller) of the three photos that Zoradode sent me !

    There are of the "Whole Flag", the "Union", and the the "Header & Grommet".


    FLAG :
    Zoradode43StarFlag-ALL.jpg


    UNION :
    Zoradode43StarFlag-UNION.jpg


    HEADER & GROMMET :
    Zoradode43StarFlag-HEADER&GROMMET.jpg


    There is something stenciled on the header I can't quite make it out. It MIGHT be the Flag's original dimensions of "39x63 Inches" (???), but that's just my guess. Zoradode DID say that the Flag was marked with "Horstmann Philadelphia", but I don't know if this is what he was referring to.

    I'll make a separate reply with just the photos attached.

    Robin Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  10. #10
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: 43 star circular / star pattern

    .

    Just Zoradode's photos ATTACHED :


    Robin Hickman

    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

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