[american_flag_uk]

THIS was a conversation held over yahoo messenger between myself and someone else who i met in a chat room

Peraon B challenged person A to ask them questions on the american flag

A imm describe this star pattern u tell me its nickname....
A in centre is 13 stars forming 1 big 6 pointed star... round that is a circle of 25 stars... and round the circle is 10 evenly spaced stars in a circle
A dont take too long answerin either. lol
A dya know??
A give up?
A do u want the answer?

(THE ANSWER TO THIS IS THE WHIPPLE FLAG)

B what does that have to do with the american flag?
A lol
A everything
A it is a star patern for a partular sort of american falg
A considering that's never been an american flag i see how it has nothing to do with the american flag
B there is only 1 american flag
B yes it's changed over the years
B there is not different "sorts" of flags tho
A so u wouldent recognise th pattern if u saw it on a flag?
B not the american flag cause it's not a "real" american flag
A well actually b4 1918 there was no 'official' pattern for the stars
A people could have the stars howver they lied them
B yes there was
A liked* as long as there was the correct amount
B actually it was before 1777 there was no offical pattern....after that there wasn't an offical pattern but they were to be alligned a particular way
B and that is not one of the ways
A no there wasnt... not b4 1918.. the stars could be however ppl wanted
A and the size of the canton was variable too... as to which strip it rested on and how far across the flag it went
B ): On June 14, 1777, in order to establish an official flag for the new nation, the Continental Congress passed the first Flag Act: "Resolved, That the flag of the United States be made of thirteen stripes, alternate red and white; that the union be thirteen stars, white in a blue field, representing a new Constellation." Act of January 13, 1794 - provided for 15 stripes and 15 stars after May 1795. Act of April 4, 1818 - provided for 13 stripes and one star for each state, to be added to the flag on the 4th of July following the admission of each new state, signed by President Monroe. Executive Order of President Taft dated June 24, 1912 - established proportions of the flag and provided for arrangement of the stars in six horizontal rows of eight each, a single point of each star to b

(PERSON B HAD TO GO THE CONVERSATION WAS PICKED UP A WEEK LATER)

A hey there
B: yes?
A 1st time i seen u light up since i last chatted to u
B that's because i am right
A so u stull dont think that the stars came in all sorts of patterns??
B that doesn't change the fact that these flags you find are NOT real american flags
A yea they are because there was no rules on the arrangement of the stars b4 the 48 star flag
A PPL could sew them howver they liked so long as there was the correctamount of stars
B that doesn't make it an "american flag"
B there is one "american flag"
B that's the one flown outside the white house
A ): with 50 stars
A the official us flag
B no i mean each time a state was added
B pay attention
A with proper colors and 1-1.9 ratio and the canton coming 2/5th acros the flag
B just because some hillbilly in tennessee decided to make his own flag
B doesn't make it offical
A yes it does
A because there was no rules about it
B yeah it's officially his flag
B ): not the US flag
A as long as it had 13 stripes 7 red w6 white and the right colors and the right amount of stars it was a US flag
B maybe a representation of a US flag
B but that doesn't make it offical
B if it was offical
A lol ur not gettin the Point i dont think.... there was no RULES.. no flag code.. no set out way to sew it
B): it would be represented by the government
B ): and never was
A it was a us flag because no rules was there to say that it wasnt
B your information is slanted
B it's only half true
A the us navy had a set pattern for the stars of their flags and also the ones used by the government had a set out way
B the government had a set pattern
A u need to do more research on the flag...
B that is what makes it offical
B what the government flys is the offical flag
B it doesn't matter what every hillbilly and hick made
B that was there way of representing the american flag
B but not the countrys
A ok... moving along... do u know who designed the 50 star flag now?
B just because a flag is made doesn't make it the countrys flag
A and how it came to be??
B you ready to move on because you finally realize i was right
A no
A because it was a lost cause
B): you can't take an unoffical flag and claim it to be offical
A but thwre was no official flag or unoffical flag
A that the point ur missing entiryly
A ): there was no official star pattern
B what the goverment flys
B is offical
B anyways
B what did you ask
A nope it wasnt officiall.. it was just the disgn that they chose and what they paid theor flagmakers to sew
A i asked u who designed the 50 star flag
B umm
B some college student
B i forget his name
B huff
B or something like that
A heft
B yeah
A has he designed any other flags?
B since then you mean
A yea
B i don't think so
B not that i know of
A wrong!
B im wrong maybe but that has nothing to do with the american flag
A if ever theres a 51st state of the USA... hes designed the flag that will be the official flag
B and this is an american flag quiz
A yes it was to do twith the american flag
A hes designed the 51 star flag
B): no it doesn't
B): cause there is no 51st state
B so that flag doesn't exist
A it is about the flag
B but that isn't our flag
B now is it?
A it has been designed in case

this is as far as the conversation on the flag went
i just thought it would be interesting to post this to get additional views as both person A and person B thought they were right and neither would budge so this is looking for 2nd opinions!!

[Peter Ansoff]

I assume that you were Person A!

There are two ways to look at the question of whether or not something is a "real" American flag. One is a functional definition, the other is a legal definition.

Functional: The purpose of an American flag (or any other nation's flag, for that matter) is to be a distinctive, recognizable symbol of that nation. The idea is that, when someone sees the flag, he/she will immediately know that whatever is displaying it (ship, army unit, government building, etc.) belongs to or is associated with the USA. This was what the flag was created for. During the Revolutionary War, there were many variations on the flag, with different stripe and star patterns, etc. If you had asked somebody from that time period if all of these were "real" American flags, he/she would have said "of course." The same is true today. There was an incident at the end of World War II, when US and Soviet soldiers met in central Europe. The Soviets started shooting at the US positions, thinking that they were Germans. The Americans broke into a store and found some white cloth and red and blue paint, and made a crude US flag to identify themselves. Was *that* a "real" American flag? Of course it was, because it did what a flag was supposed to do -- identify its bearers as Americans.

Legal: The flag is legally defined by Title 4, Chapter 1, Sections 1 and 2 of the US Code. These two sections are a codified and updated version of the law that was passed in 1818. They say:

"The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars, white in a blue field. On the admission of a new State into the Union one star shall be added to the union of the flag; and such addition shall take effect on the fourth day of July then next succeeding such admission."

If a flag conforms to those words, then it is an "official" US flag as defined by US law. Notice that the law says nothing about the arrangement of the stars, or weather the top and bottom stripes are red or white, or about the proportions of the canton or the flag overall.

The proportions, star patterns and other details of the flag have been defined by a series of executive orders, starting in 1912. The most recent was the 1959 order that defined the 50 star flag. What many people don't understand is that these orders define the flags that will be procured and used by the executive branch of the federal government (which includes the armed forces). They are executive orders, not laws. They do not, for example, apply to the US Congress, because Congress is not part of the executive branch. The flag that is flying on the US Capitol building in Washington today does not conform to the executive order of 1959, because its proportions are not 1:1.9. However, it is certainly an "official" flag within the meaning of both usage and law. Most flags that are sold commercially in the USA do not conform to the proportions of the executive order either, but they are "real" US flags by any reasonable definition.

I've noticed that many people are hung up on this issue of whether a given flag is "real" or "official." There is no magic answer -- it depends on what you mean by those words. For most purposes, if the average person would recognize it as an American flag, then it's an American flag, regardless of the details.

In other words, I think that you were right, Person A!

Peter Ansoff

[american_flag_uk]

person A was me!!! i think u already knew that cos i wouldent use the words 'hillbilly' or 'hick' from Tennessee cos i dont really understand these terms!! other than the fact they are obviously insulting.