Display of flag with another country's flag on a shirt

[Luna Baby]

Hi. This is my first post, please bear with me. I have researched the flag many times as I make the purchase of new flags for display/replacement at work. I thought I knew what I needed to know, until this year.

My understanding of how the flag or images of it are displayed is that the union should be to the top and to my left when looking at it, my right if I am behind it, as in it being placed on a shirt (unless of course, it is on the right shoulder of a military uniform).

Here is my dilemma.....my husband and son are members of the U.S. Karate Team and travel once a year out of the country for foreign competition. There is a different t-shirt designed each year for that year's European tournament (the nationals). This year, we will be traveling to Germany and whoever designed our shirts placed the U.S. flag on the right side of the shirt (the left if you are looking at me wearing it) and the German/Dutch flag on the opposite side. However, the U.S. flag is displayed what appears to me as backwards. If you are looking at the shirt, the union of our flag is displayed on the right side. This is on the front of the shirt, not on the right sleeve (that would have made sense to me). When I first saw the design via email, my first thoughts were that the flag is backwards, but our coach (he's military) insists that it is correct.

Can someone direct me as to this issue? I can't find anything in the flag code that directs as to how this display would be handled. I feel very uncomfortable wearing this shirt as it is currently, but it's too late to get it changed as our travels are in less than 2 weeks.

Any advise?

~Luna

[american_flag_uk]

the shirt on the left side appears to me like the one you have described.....
that shirt is definatly incorrect no two ways about it.... i drew the same display on crossed staffs to show the incorrection that the US flag is the wrong way round.

the US flag when displayed flat or on a wall or any 2 dimensional display the union lshould be on its own right - to the viewers left.

now i would guess your military man has got himself mixed up becaue he is used to seeing the flag the 'wrong way' around on shoulder patches - which is the right way round for it in that instance because the point of prominece is toward the front rather than to the right.

when the 2 flags oare displayed ona shirt like this the shirt on the right side is correct.
i would feel unconfortable awell to wear the shirt pictured on the left. if ur military man still insists hes correct and is confused send him here to read this

[currierp3]

Yes, you are correct, for frontal display the union should be to the flag's own right. The reason it is displayed 'backwards" on the shoulder patches of the military is to symbolize the position of the flag as it would be seen in an advancing column where the flag is being blown backwards by the wind, towards the rear of the flag bearer

[currierp3]

By the way, American_Flag_UK - I have to say that your interest in our country and our flag is heartwarming. Keep up the good work.

As an aside, though, please be cautious in your interest in the confederate flag - it symbolizes a terrible period in our history, and a treasonous attempt to destroy the Union at the costs of the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans.

If you are interested in history, you may be interested to research the Declaration of independence and the Constitution, our founding documents - they were created by True Patriots, our founding fathers (who risked their own lives by committing such ideals to paper). They are the embodiment of freedom, and represent ideals of liberty and democracy not only for the United States but the peoples of the world. In fact the Declaration of Independence was used as a model for the declarations of independence of several other nations in more recent times.

If you like movies, you should find the movies 'The Patriot' and GETTYSBURG very interesting (and actually pretty good movies)

[Peter Ansoff]

Hi, Luna!

for frontal display the union should be to the flag's own right.

All this is true. However, I don't think that I would get too excited about the fact that the flags on your shirts are "backwards", even though they're not strictly in accordance with the flag code. Flags do have two sides. If they were upside down or something, that would be different.

when the 2 flags are displayed on a shirt like this the shirt on the right side is correct.

Well, yes and no. In the USA it's proper to give the US flag precedence by putting it on the right. However, the host nation really ought to have precedence. If the competition is in Germany, I'd say that the German flag should be on the right.

However, all of these are technicalities. The flag code is not the holy writ, and most people would probably never even notice the difference. I'd say, wear your shirts with pride. Good luck in the competition -- let us know how it turns out!

Peter Ansoff

[Luna Baby]

Thanks, folks, for the responses. I have been so busy since returning from Germany that I hadn't had time to really get back on here. The US Flag code has become in interesting subject for me lately, not really sure why, other than just to increase my knowledge about something I had very little of. I learn something new each time I search.

The competition was great! Of the 5 boys we took overseas from our hometown, 2 of the 5 did bring home medals. However, the 3 that weren't as fortunate had a really good showing. I wished they could all have gotten medals, but 1st year on this level really is a learning curve. Next year we will be competing on our home turf-Florida!!-- and I expect our boys to do much better. This was my son's 3rd year traveling abroad and he has really become the traveler. Was really scary though since about 2 days after returning home there was a terrorist type threat to the Americans in the same area of Germany we stayed in and they were taken into court in the actual city we stayed in. Was only 2 weeks from returning from Spain last year when there was car bombing in the Madrid airport right where we flew out of. Kinda makes you wonder.

Any how, thanks again for your help. I am wearing the shirts here, some, usually just to work or to the karate school. Now I just have to convice the master instructor that I was in fact correct about the military patch. He keeps telling me that they were the flag on the left shoulder and their unit patch on the right. However, I've seen many of the uniform lately and it's all been on the right. Can't hardly argue with him though, he'll make it tough on me in karate class! I guess a little at a time or maybe the next time he puts on the uniform and I casually mention it.

~Luna

[Peter Ansoff]

Dear Luna,

Hi, glad to hear that the competition went well. Will you be getting shirts next year with US and Florida flags?

The flag code is an interesting subject, although I think that people often take it much too seriously. As I said in the last post, it's not the holy writ, but just a set of sensible guidelines about how to display and treat the flag. It's also not complete -- there are several important areas that it doesn't cover, and it actually contradicts itself in a couple of places. Some of this is due to the fact that it's been amended several times over the years, and the amenders were somewhat sloppy.

On the shoulder patches, here is what US Army Regulations (AR 670-1) have to say:

Para 28-18c:

(1) When approved for wear, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is sewn 1⁄2 inch below the right shoulder seam of the temperate, hot-weather, enhanced hot-weather, and desert BDU; the BDU field jacket; and the cold-weather uniform . . .If the SSI–FWTS is worn on the right shoulder of the utility uniform, the full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is placed 1⁄8 inch below the right shoulder sleeve insignia.

This makes it pretty clear that the US flag patch goes on the right sleeve. It's interesting that the FWTS (Former War Time Service) patch goes above the US flag patch, but that's what the regulations say. (See 28-17, below)

Para 28-16e:

(1) Non-subdued. All personnel will wear the non-subdued SSI [SSI = Shoulder Sleeve Insignia] of their current organization centered on the left sleeve, 1/2 inch below the top of the shoulder seam, on the coat of the Army green uniform.
(2) Subdued. All personnel wear the subdued SSI on the temperate, hot-weather, enhanced hot-weather, aviation, and desert BDU; flight suit and flight jacket; combat vehicle crewman uniform; and the BDU field jacket. Personnel will not wear subdued SSI on hospital duty and food service uniforms. Positioning of the insignia is identical to the non-subdued insignia, covered above.

So the Shoulder Sleeve Insignia (SSI) for the soldier's current unit goes on the left sleeve.

Para 28-17e:

(1) Non-subdued. At the option of the wearer, individuals who were members of an Army unit during one of the operations listed above may wear the non-subdued U.S. Army organizational SSI of a wartime unit ... that was approved by HQDA on the right sleeve of the Army green uniform coat. The insignia is worn centered, 1⁄2 inch below the top of the right shoulder seam).
(2) Subdued. Authorized personnel may wear the subdued SSI–FWTS on the right sleeve of the temperate, hotweather, enhanced hot-weather, and desert BDU, and the BDU field jacket, as described above.

So the SSI of a unit that the soldier previously served in during wartime goes on the right sleeve, above the US flag. (See 28-18, above)

So -- The US Army says that the flag goes on the right. The unit patch goes on the left, except for an FWTS patch which goes on the right above the US flag patch. It looks to me like you can tell your instructor "You're entitled to your opinion, but that's not what Army Regulations say!"

Best regards,

Peter Ansoff