[Peter Ansoff]

Hi, Ron,

But Alaskans like the 49 star as their own.

When I was in Sitka a few years ago, I noticed that the gift shop in the cultural center was selling 49 star flags, along with the Russian-America Company flags.

There is a flag labelled as the Alfred flag that shows the 3/2/3/2/3 pattern but with 7 white and 6 red instead of the more usual 7 red and 6 white.

You're probably thinking about the flag of the Alliance, not the Alfred. The Alliance flag picture was painted in Holland in 1779, at the same time as the Serapis picture that you mentioned.

Washington seems to have had two flags . . . and the one that is at Valley Forge with the 13 6-pointed stars in the 3/2/3/2/3 pattern.

There's an interesting article by Donald Holst in the Fall 1994 issue of "Military Collector and Historian" that discusses this flag. Holst makes a pretty strong case that it was actually an artillery flag, and had nothing to do with Washington.

The legend that Franklin may have designed the Continental Union is also not supportable, is it?

No, it's not. The historiography of that legend is kind of convoluted, but most of it came from a book written by Robert Campbell in 1890. Campbell's story was an obvious fabrication -- he cited no sources and got a lot of basic facts wrong. As far as I know, there's no evidence that Franklin had anything to do with designing the Continental Colours.

You might be interested in an article that I wrote on the Continental Colours in the NAVA journal "Raven" a couple of years ago. It's on the NAVA web site (NAVA - Home, click on the "Flag Information" tab and then select "NAVA News and Raven Articles.") The article deals with the flag-raising by Washington's Army in January 1776, based on a review of the primary sources that describe the incident. My conclusion was that it didn't happen the way the history books say it did.

The East India Company used a similar flag with varying numbers of stripes, including up to 13. Were the stripes related to their scattered operations?

As far as anybody knows, the number of stripes on the EIC flag did not have any particular significance. As you point out, the number seemed to vary. (I've seen one picture of the flag on an EIC ship in China that had 21 stripes!)

The stripe motif of that company might have been the source of the pre-war Sons of Liberty Flag or Continental Union flag of 13 red and white stripes since so much of the rebellion against the British Parliament was triggered by activities involving the East India Company and the favoritism given it in the Tea Act. E.g the Boston Tea Party, and similar protests in Charleston and Annapolis.

That all seems fairly dubious. The tea shipments that triggered the "Tea Parties" were not sent in EIC ships, and even if they had been, the ships would not have flown the EIC flag in American waters (they were not allowed to fly it in the Atlantic north of St. Helena). And even if they had, why would the Americans adopt the flag of the "enemy?"

The "Sons of Liberty" flag is another interesting case. As far as I can tell, the only evidence that they used a red and white striped flag before the Revolution comes from the relic flag that's preserved at the Bostonian Society. The evidence that this flag had anything to do with the Sons of Liberty is very slim. This may turn out to be yet another legend that's been perpetrated down through the years.

So much of the history of that era is difficult to trace and document.

Very true! Part of the problem is that writers tend to assume that the people in the 18th century viewed the flag the same way that we do. My impression is that, to most people during the Revolution, the flag was a rather mundane issue.

Best regards,

Peter Ansoff

[bronny49]

Peter:

Thanks for additional information and unscrambling my mix-up of Alfred and Alliance.

I have on order a copy of the Milo M. Quaife book. I found what is described as a very fine copy for under $9 including shipping.

Your final comment is so right. The post-Civil War years leading up to the centennial in 1876 and the subsequent decades seem to be the period when the flag became an item of near worship. So many of the myths and old family lore came out of the attics, including the Betsy Ross story, the Bennington Flag, the Cowpens Flag and others. It was the period that produced the Pledge of Allegiance and the popular use of the flag for advertisement. That generated the first election campaign (1896) which began the Republican habit of claiming special patriotism and questioning the patriotism of the Democrats. That period also was followed by the beginnings of the flag protection drafts and speeches and such. And ever since, people project the ideas and legends of that period back into the 18th century. Many of the patriotic but anachronistic post-Revolution paintings also contributed to the excess of legends becoming "fact".

Ron

[american_flag_uk]

when i was growing up - my pre vexillology days i had learnt about the Americans love for their flag and wondered why we didnt have the same love for our flag (im english in case u didnt know) was our flag not as good as the american one? was the fact that the american flag looks nicer than the england flag have something to do with it? did americans just love their country and expressed it by flying flags evereywhere?
these questions were all raised in my head and in discussion when i grew up.

of course now i love the american flag like any other americaan perhaps more i dont know.. but i am completely obsessed with it.. more than ud ever believe lol! the bug certainly caught up with me!

[Peter Ansoff]

why we didnt have the same love for our flag (im english in case u didnt know) was our flag not as good as the american one?

Part of the answer, I think, is that the flag is the most prominent nonpartisan national symbol that we have to represent our country's heritage, ideals and institutions. In Britain you have the Queen to fill that role.

In both cases, it's the symbol rather than the physical thing or person that matters. In Revolutionary War-era writings, there are frequent references to fighting for "the honor of the flag" and such. I suspect that those writers were not thinking about the flag as a piece of cloth, but as a metaphor for their cause. Similarly, a Briton would have said that he was fighting for the crown -- he wouldn't mean the King's fancy hat, but the institutions of the British nation.

Peter Ansoff

[Robin Hickman]

Greetings !!!


For those who might be a tad confused about the UK's Grand Union (Union Jack) being right side up or upside down, I offer a simple VISUAL aid :


RIGHT :
UK-GrandUnionFlag.jpg

WRONG :
UK-GrandUnionFlag-UpsideDown.jpg

RIGHT :
UK-GU-Right.jpg

WRONG :
UK-GU-Wrong.jpg


I wonder what it will feel like when I spot an upside-down Union Jack (LIVE!) for the very first time ?

Robin "Yes... I Can See The Difference Now" Hickman

[american_flag_uk]

hah - I have seen quite a few!!

[StarSpangledBanner]

Originally Posted by Peter Ansoff

Dear Jill,
...
2) The flag has 50 stars. Does each star represent a spsecific state?

Again, no. The three resolutions just specified the number of stars, and the 1818 resolution provided that a new star would be added on the 4th of July following the addition of each new state. I've seen many books with diagrams that assign a state's name to each star (usually in the order that they joined the union), but there is no official basis for this.
Peter Ansoff

As the nation grew and a new star was added with each new state, some organization would have had to keep track of which star represented which state -- for two reasons. One, that no one individual lived that long, and Two, because as each new star was added, they were rearranged to look balanced on the flag (so, the previous order would have been lost).

[Peter Ansoff]

Hello, SSB -- welcome to the forum!

As the nation grew and a new star was added with each new state, some organization would have had to keep track of which star represented which state

Nobody keeps track of it, because there's nothing to keep track of. The law just says that a star is added to the flag whenever a state is added to the union. The individual stars do not (officially) represent particular states.

because as each new star was added, they were rearranged to look balanced on the flag (so, the previous order would have been lost).

It's true that the arrangement of the stars changes when additional stars are added. Before 1912, each of the military services had its own regulations dealing with the star arrangement; since then it has been defined for all the services by Presidental executive order. The actual law that defines the flag does not say anything about the arrangement of the stars.

Peter Ansoff