[csaanv]

This is my first post but I have been a member for awhile. I collect all kinds of flags but the bulk of my collection has been older US flags, mostly 48 stars. Like UK (Robin) I love G-spec flags and even wished that all American flag makers would make US flags accordingly to the government specs. The larger stars and longer fly makes for a better visible flag in my opinion. Also I wished they would go back to appliquéing stars too. I understand the economics of the machine made flags but before long all we will have is printed flags if the trend continues. Anyway, enough of my grandstanding. I do have a couple of questions about flag materials that maybe my NAVA buddies, Nick and Peter could answer. First, exactly when did the Annin Company start mass embroidering of the stars on their US flags. I have a US Naval Jack and Ensign maybe from the 70's that the stars are appliqued but everything since has been embroidered. I am trying to nail down a precise date. Also I noticed that Annin started using a different type "cotton" in the last 10 years or so. It is lighter but very stiff and rough. My older cotton flags were supple and soft to the touch. I mentioned Annin since they were usually the leader in these trends but any major flag company will do. Is there a resource that would give a history of these types of trends?

[csaanv]

My second question was when did Annin go to this new type of "cotton"?

[NAVA1974]

Hello csaanv,

We have met before on eBay so welcome to the USA Flag forum.

I will have to check my Annin catalogs to see when they started touting their huge Swiss embroidery machine that could stitch a large number of cantons at a time. It may give some clue to when they made the switch, but I suspect they used embroidery on a smaller scale before then.

As far as the use of various fabrics I don't think you'll get much useful info from the flagmakers themselves. Oddly enough, I've only found one who had any sense of history, and that was Bill Spangler of Dettra. I visited his factory in the 1980's and had a nice chat about the business and how it has changed over the years. I should have brought a tape recorder with me.

But Jim Ferrigan has dealt very closely with both Annin and Dettra over the years and he, too, bemoans the fact that flagmakers record very little of their history for posterity. When Annin moved from NYC to NJ they trashed their entire 1847-1960's material as so much waste paper.

If you are lucky you may be able to contact the company and find a person who recalls the change in cotton fabric and give you some details.
Good luck.

Nick

[csaanv]

Thanks Nick for your informative reply. I suspect we have made bids together or should I say against each other more than once on ebay as we seem to have the same flag interests. Also I have seen you on the CWflags forum too. I agree with you that it is a shame that flag makers don't keep their history. With Annin gobbling up Dettra there are not too many older companies left out there. I can think of Valley Forge, Collegeville, Chicago Flag and US Flag and Signal which has been here in Tidewater, Virginia since the 1930's. Maybe you know of others. I do have a friend in Danville, Virginia who has a patient that works in Aninn's South Boston plant who says he can try to give me some information. You bought up the fact and I have seen a few embroidered 48 star flags on the consumer level and but after 1960 with the addition of 2 new states all consumer flags switched to embroidered stars except I have found an appliquéd 50 star 3' x 5' US. It seems the government/military switched from wool bunting or a wool/rayon or wool/nylon blend to all nylon after the Korean War and waited later until the early 1970's to go embroidered. I have a couple of 48 star nylon ensigns (I believe to be mid-late 1950's) and I have a 50 star jack and a few 50 star naval ensigns that are appliquéd (from the 1960's or 1970's). Of course I am just speculating and I was hoping to get some hard factual evidence for an article I am writing for my local paper. I still see a lot of 50 appliquéd cotton coffin flags on ebay but not in the smaller flags. Again, thank you.

[Robin Hickman]

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Hi, csaanv !


Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site Forums !


I hope you don't mind my briefly butting in, but I have a similar concern regarding "dating" a flag's year of manufacture using the manufacturer's tags, labels, stenciling, and/or other marks.

I asked about it in a thread but there have been (so far) no replies.

http://www.usa-flag-site.org/forum/flag-manufacturers-labels-and-marks-6982.html

I thought that because SO many other areas of "antiques" and "collectibles" have manufacturers' marking guides that maybe someone had done the same thing for Flags.

Anyway, sorry for butting in !


Thank You for bringing your flag-related question to our Forums !!!


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[csaanv]

Robin,
I am so glad you jumped in. I totally agree it would be wonderful if there was such a reference guide to identify a flag's age, manufacture, etc. but as Nick has said it is unlikely we will get much help from the flag manufacturers or the ones that remain. Grace Rogers Cooper's book "Thirteen-Star Flags" is an excellent resource on 19th century flags but nothing like it has been done for the 20th century to the present. I give "flag talks" to various heritage, civic and patriotic groups in my area and wanted to give more accurate information on dating and accessing the value of a flag. I think we are on the same page. I hope we hear back from Nick and maybe others will join in this thread.
Cheers,
Mike

[american_flag_uk]

I wondered that too about flag material

I also have some older Annin flags, and the cotton is sooooo soft!... Maybe I shouldn't admit it, but I am very tactile and i have loved running my hands over the material

I have noticed very much how the cotton material in more recent flags is not this soft, and its harder almost and a bit rougher too

I love G-spec flags and have several in my collection.. their nylon ones I have are also very nice to the touch, and fly very well.. they look gorgeous on a pole, and they need very little wind to come to life

[csaanv]

Hi American_Flag_UK,
I love G-spec flags too! The nylon bunting that Valley Forge uses (Perma Nyl) is a tight weave process that gives it a nice feel and is light weight too. I am not sure what the process Aninn uses for it's cotton bunting but it is far too stiff and does not flow with the wind. I would like to know what the Bulldog bunting is like since Aninn took over Dettra. Maybe Coasterville can comment?

[coasterville]

It's not as plush as I remember old flags being. It's actually rough if you rub your hand on it. Also if you hold it up to the light you can see through it, not as dense as it could be. Compare to my cotton Betsy Ross, not annin but a lot heftier and softer to the touch

Here, let me pass around my annin bulldog star spangled banner for show and tell. .

[Robin Hickman]

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I honestly don't know if or why Annin's (or anyone ele's) cotton Flag fabric is of a different "type" or "formula". But if it is NOT because of using a different manufacturing (weaving) process (or lowered the thread count), the one thing that popped into my head was the possibility that perhaps the "softer" cotton Flags might be from a higher grade/model. Much like Annin's "Nyl-Glo" Flags compared to their "Signature Series" Flags.

Or, now that I think of it, maybe it's the difference between an INDOOR Flag and an OUTDOOR Flag?


Like I said, I don't know, but it's a thought.....


Robin
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