How old is my flag?

[AmericaHurrah]

You had to obtain a license to fly the yacht ensign with a canted anchor up and until the 1980's?

[csaanv]

Hi America Hurrah,

The size you are describing is not a Navy flag, but a private yacht ensign.

Since the size of government flags were not regulated until the Executive Order of 1912 by President Taft and this flag predates that, by what authority are you using saying this was the incorrect size for a US naval flag of that period? We know for a fact the US Navy used different sizes of 13 star flags (with the 3-2-3-2-3 pattern), called "boat" flags up to and into the early 20th century.
From Wikipedia:
During the 19th century, for its smaller-sized ensigns, the U.S. Navy used a 13-star flag which became known as "boat flag" due to its predominate use on boats (i.e., launches, gigs and tenders). The reason for the lesser number of stars was so that the stars in a smaller size flag would have greater visibility at a distance. Because they flew smaller-sized ensigns, the US Navy's first submarines and destroyers in the early 20th century also used the 13-star ensigns, even though they were not boats. In 1912, President Taft formally recognized the Navy's longstanding use of the 13-star ensign in Executive Order 1637, and precise dimensions were defined. This lasted just four more years however, as President Wilson acting through Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels discontinued the practice in 1916 with Executive Order 2390, after which all ensigns were supposed to have the full complement of stars. However, some of the flags remained in the supply system until the 1950s.

500px-U.S._13-star_boat_flag_(1912-1916).png

[Peter Ansoff]

Since the size of government flags were not regulated until the Executive Order of 1912 by President Taft

This is actually a common misunderstanding. The size of government flags *was* regulated long before 1912. The earliest Navy regulation was promlugated in 1818 (I think -- I'm travelling and away from my library!), and the Army promulgated regulations also. The purpose of the 1912 Executive Order was to standardize the sizes and arrangements of the flags used by the Army and the Navy. It had to come from the President, because the two services were independent in those pre-DoD days.

Peter Ansoff

[AmericaHurrah]

A thoughful and compelling response. Thanks. It will prompt me to do some work, that's for sure. There are many patterns of flags that I believe were made for nautical use with 13 stars, but maybe that wasn't so. It's a plausible theory.

But let me ask you how many images of little 13 star flags like these have you seen in use on land? I have seen a couple. And by that I mean maybe 2 images. There are many images of big 45 star flags being used on land, but not the 13's.

On another note, among surviving examples, you almost never see 13 star yacht ensigns with a fouled anchor that pre-date the zigzag machine patent for the appliqueing of stars. In the period between say 1890 and 1920, there are many 13 star flags without an anchor. That's why I suggest that these effectively replaced the fouled anchor style in this era. I am not saying that production of the foulded anchor style stopped, but I am suggesting that it went out of vogue with the owners of pleasure boats.

In any event, there are practically no photos of the little 13's being used anywhere, on land or water, in my experience.

[AmericaHurrah]

p.s., The post below is in response to Nick's post. I will hit Peter's later when I get the chance... Thanks to you both for the lively discussion?

[AmericaHurrah]

As for size, 2' x 3' and 2.5' x 4' were the sizes of most (but certainly not all) of the commercially made, small, 13 star flags (whatever you wish to call them). There were some larger ones too and there were oddball sizes, especially in the early 1890's.

I am not going to list all of the sizes here of the Navy's flags with 13 stars, but suffice to say that theirs were quite different. Around the turn of the century (1900) they were not 2'x 3' or 2.5" x 4'. When you see those sizes (minus shrinkage or plus an additional inch or two for a binding), you know you don't have one unless it was altered.

[Robin Hickman]

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( I hate seeming to go "off topic", BUT..... )


Gee! I wonder how BRIAN is doing ?!?!?!?



Y'all remember BRIAN, don't you ?!?!?!?



You know, BRIAN, the guy that started this thread? Has anybody heard from him? Any pictures or anything like that?



Just Wondering . . . . .



Robin "Where's Brian?" Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[NAVA1974]

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( I hate seeming to go "off topic", BUT..... )
Gee! I wonder how BRIAN is doing ?!?!?!?

Oh we're having too much fun without Brian or his photos.

Tho' he would certainly be welcome to re-join the discussion.

And to AmericaHurrah, your comments have certainly made me actually THINK about the uses of 13 star flags in the late 19th to early 20th C era. I just assumed they were for decorative / commemorative purposes, or simply used in lieu of flags with the full number of stars. It wasn't until this era that American homeowners began to display the flag, so you really didn't have much need for small flags except to wave in parades, or to fly from a small boat. Without a number of period photos of these flags in use it's hard to tell just where the 3-2-3-2-3 flags were used. I assumed that yacht owners would use the fouled anchor flag since it had been designated for use on yachts. But maybe that usage was limited to yacht club members? Or maybe they were completely interchangeable?

AT LEAST we are beyond the point where everyone who has one of these flags swears that it was a flag that G-G-G-G-G-G-Grandfather carried in the Revolutionary War! (even when the flag is machine sewn)

Nick A
Columbia, MD