How old is my flag?

[Brian]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum. I have an American flag that has been in my family since at least 1900. I don't have photos but I will describe it as best I can.

Size is about 4' x 3' and it is made of what looks to me like linen. It is machine sewn, straight stitch on the stripes and zigzag on the stars. There are 13 stars in a 3-2-3-2-3 pattern.

Any ideas on it's purpose or when it was made? Why a 13 star flag in the latter half of the 1800's? Maybe a Centennial celebration flag?

Any info is welcome.
Thanks!

[Brian]

From reading some other posts...looks like my flag dates from around 1890-1900. That jives with the family history. Still, what was the purpose to the 13 star flag at the turn of the century?
Brian

[Robin Hickman]

.
Hello, Brian!

Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site Forums!


If you've read some of the threads in this Forum, "Flag Identification & Collecting", one of the things that you've already figured out is the "wisdom" behind the old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words".

It can very difficult, if not almost impossible, to render any kind of "accurate" opinion about a Flag without being able to, at the very least, "see" it.

Is there ANY way that you could take some pictures of your Flag and post them here? The types of photos that are most helpful are pretty simple. An over-all shot of the entire Flag, and some close-ups of the header (white canvas strip with the the grommets), the grommets, and the construction details such as the sewing/stitching of the stars, the stripes, the hems, etc.

Although I am NOT a Flag expert by any stretch of the imagination (and I don't play one on TV), I have been around here long enough to know that our real "Flag Experts" ALWAYS want to see some pictures of the Flag(s) in question. An added benefit to having pictures of your Flag, is they might come in handy if you end up wanting to sell your Flag (especially on-lone).


BTW : It would seem to me that you might be correct in your "guess" that it might be a "centennial" era Flag.


Thank You for bringing your Flag-related question to our Forums !!!



Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Brian]

Thanks Robin. I'll try to get some good pics and post them. I think I have the general date figured out but still not the purpose. The flag came from the Caldwell branch of my family and may have belonged to Harry Caldwell, best man at Admiral Dewey's wedding and commander of the US Navy's first submarine. I have no documentation other than the flag was always stored in a box that contained two original photo portraits of Harry. My hope would be to find a Navy tie-in to the 13 star flag at that period.

[csaanv]

Hi Brian,
There is a naval connection. Until the early 20th century (ca.1916) the U.S. Navy had used a 13 star ensign on smaller vessels and boats.
From the FOTW website:
Ensigns flown on boats were too small for the 45, 46, or 48 stars to be clearly visible (or maybe they were just too hard to make with the technology of the time), so boats flew a 13-star ensign instead of the standard one. Joe McMillan, 5 July 2000

Another possibility was a number of commemorative 13 star flags were made for the 1876 centennial but most likely yours would be the former given the naval connection. Is there any way you could post a photo of your flag?

[NAVA1974]

I have an American flag that has been in my family since at least 1900. .... There are 13 stars in a 3-2-3-2-3 pattern. ... Any ideas on it's purpose or when it was made? Why a 13 star flag in the latter half of the 1800's? Maybe a Centennial celebration flag?

Brian,

From my experience collecting antique US flags over four decades, small sewn flags from the late 19th century are rare. When you do find them, they are more likely to have only 13 stars than they are to have the full compliment of stars. This is because, as CSAANV states, "Ensigns flown on boats were too small for the 45, 46, or 48 stars to be clearly visible." The same held for flags on land, apparently.

I even have one flagmaker's catalog that states that larger flags "come with the full compliment of stars." This implies that small sewn flags (ie up to 3x5 ft) only had 13 stars. You only found all the stars showing up on printed flags.

Please see my Flickr site for photos of other antique 13 star flags. Is yours like one of them? 13 Star Flags - a set on Flickr

Nick A
Columbia Maryland

[AmericaHurrah]

The size you are describing is not a Navy flag, but a private yacht ensign. Say mid-1890's through the 1920's. They bring about $300-$400 at auction, depending on the quality and condition. But this is just an educated guess. Like these guys said, a picture is worth 1,000 words.

[NAVA1974]

The size you are describing is not a Navy flag, but a private yacht ensign.

Just being a stickler on terminology here, but 13 star flags with the arrangement that Brian has may very well have been used as ensigns on private yachts, but that is not the same as the "Yacht Ensign."

The United States Yacht Ensign has the 13 stars in a circle with a fouled anchor inside:
YachtEnsign.jpg
The Yacht Ensign was created by Act of Congress in August, 1848 as a flag to be used by licensed U.S. yachts. This was apparently not intended to be an ensign, but rather was intended to be used as a signal flag by a licensed yacht to declare herself exempt from customs duties. Due to its similarity to the national ensign, however, many yachts started using this as the ensign, and eventually the US government announced that it would accept this practice for yachts in United States waters; but the national flag is the only ensign allowable in international or foreign waters.

Nick A
Columbia MD

[AmericaHurrah]

I have to very respectfully disagree with the strict use of the term.

I use this term for both the 13 stars with an anchor style and the "anchor-less" styles. By the 1890's the 1848 legislation was no longer in effect, correct? People thereafter flew various little flags with 13 stars, sometimes with an anchor, sometimes without. In the 1890's it seems to have been more typically without.

So in the 1950's or even today, would you call the unofficial "private yacht ensign" a "private yacht ensign" or simply a "13 star flag with an anchor in the center of a wreath design?"

[NAVA1974]

I have to very respectfully disagree with the strict use of the term.

I appreciate that.

I use this term for both the 13 stars with an anchor style and the "anchor-less" styles. By the 1890's the 1848 legislation was no longer in effect, correct?

Not exactly. According to Wikipedia, the existence of the Yacht Ensign in United States statute was repealed by the Vessel Documentation Act of 1980. So throughout the late 19th century and most of the 20th century, the "Yacht Ensign" was the flag with 13 stars in a circle surrounding the fouled anchor, distinct from 13 star flags in the 3-2-3-2-3 pattern.

People thereafter flew various little flags with 13 stars, sometimes with an anchor, sometimes without. In the 1890's it seems to have been more typically without.

I agree that, since most small sewn American flags were made with 13 stars, most smaller yachts would fly the 3-2-3-2-3 flag or the Yacht Ensign with the fouled anchor in the circle of stars. But even though they flew from many yachts, I believe it is inappropriate to call the 3-2-3-2-3 flag a "yacht ensign" since there was a different flag legally established as the Yacht Ensign. The only photos that I have seen which show a 13-star flag in the 3-2-3-2-3 pattern show them on boats of the US Navy and I would like to see photos of this flag used elsewhere.

So in the 1950's or even today, would you call the unofficial "private yacht ensign" a "private yacht ensign" or simply a "13 star flag with an anchor in the center of a wreath design?"

The fouled anchor flag is the "Yacht Ensign" both by law (up to the 1980's) and by tradition, while the 3-2-3-2-3 flag is simply a small United States Ensign, whether used on yachts, in parades, on homes, etc.

Nick A
Columbia MD