New patriot innovation flags appearing

[Peter Ansoff]

Per the flag code, yes,

Well, I think one could make a case that the flag code does not apply to the "2 Rev" flag or to a peace-sign flag. Section 5 of the code itself says "The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to sections 1 and 2 of this title . . ." Those sections basically say that the flag has a blue canton with 50 white stars. A flag that doesn't have those things is not a US flag for the purposes of the flag code.

The choice to reproduce someone's inciteful speech is a moral choice that USA Flag Site cannot abdicate. I am not telling USA Flag Site what choice to make, I am pointing out that it is a choice.

Of course, the tricky part is defining "inciteful." We don't want to stifle discussion, but we also want to keep it civil. It's a fine line that we do our best to recognize.

However, if we are going to have such discussions, it is likely to change the tone around here.

I hope not, and we won't hesitate to cut off posters who cross the line from discussion to polemic. As I've said here many times, there are plenty of other places on the internet where folks can engage in political ranting. Also, we want to continue to keep things focused on our primary subjects (the flag and patriotism) and not wander too far into other issues such as immigration, health care reform, etc.

Peter Ansoff

[flja]

giving representational government a new life by voting out wholesale the entire lot of crooks that currently inhabit the halls of power in our nation

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds a bit inconsistent. That "lot of crooks" is in power because they were elected to their offices via our democratic process,

Not always. Incumbent office holders from Florida have an automatic advantage over challengers because Florida’s ballot access laws are so restrictive. Most Floridians cannot afford the filing fee required to have their name placed on the election ballot. Neither can most Floridians afford the cost qualifying by petition. For a statewide office like governor or U.S. senator you have to submit about 112,000 signatures- and unless the law has been changed since 2002 you have to pay the government 10 cents per signature to have them verified or else sign an affidavit pleading poverty (but if you can afford the petition drive you can afford the verification or filing fee). Voters in Florida cannot even cast votes for write-in candidates that have not officially registered with the government as write-in candidates.

I generally take a dim view of anyone on the net who is preaching a second American Revolution. If the government is not more-or-less doing what the governed want it to do, the governed would have taken action years ago. Most people on the net that are preaching rights and liberty and claiming to be saving the Constitution are really just libertarians who have no respect for the rule of law.

[Robin Hickman]

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GREETINGS !


I don't know if the "inventors" of the so-called "second revolution" flag should have made it ONLY for those people born under the astrological sign of GEMINI ( II ).

Perhaps they should consider making second revolution flags for ALL of the signs of the zodiac ???

AstrologicalSigns.jpg


SEE ???


The symbol for GEMINI ( II ) is right there in the top row!

I'm guessing that the second revolution flag for the sign of CANCER (to the right of GEMINI) would be the most popular on college campuses.....

But, who knows ???


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon

[flja]

.
GREETINGS !


I don't know if the "inventors" of the so-called "second revolution" flag should have made it ONLY for those people born under the astrological sign of GEMINI ( II ).

Perhaps they should consider making second revolution flags for ALL of the signs of the zodiac ???

AstrologicalSigns.jpg


SEE ???


The symbol for GEMINI ( II ) is right there in the top row!

I'm guessing that the second revolution flag for the sign of CANCER (to the right of GEMINI) would be the most popular on college campuses.....

But, who knows ???


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon

I went to the website and didn’t find anything but an online store trying to sell various flags. It seems that this 2nd American Revolution is more about profits than patriotism.

[Robin Hickman]

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GREETINGS !


On the "surface" of it, FLJA is right: the "u.s. revolution 2" website exists primarily to sell its "usrev2" flags. At least on the Main Page, anyway. It appears that the site is a "one-man operation", and the "one man" is a Mr. Jeffery Allan McQueen of Rochester, Michigan.

Checking some of the website's OTHER pages (news, videos, links, etc.), however, shows us that the more they become entangled and entwined, patriotism, politics, and profits can rapidily become VERY convoluted and confusing.

With today's start of the "Teabaggers' Ball" (convention) in Nashville, TN, THIS website might get a few visits from some of our friendly, neighborhood teabaggers!



As for me, I still remember seeing the "usrev2" flag for the first time and thinking that somebody created a "special" flag for "Patriotic Geminis" and wondering if they also made one for us "Patriotic Aquarians" !!!


Go figure !!!



Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Peter Ansoff]

I went to the website and didn’t find anything but an online store trying to sell various flags. It seems that this 2nd American Revolution is more about profits than patriotism.

I disagree. This "second revolution" flag really does seem to have gained some traction with the "Tea Party" movement, and is becoming a generally recognized political symbol. While I'm not very impressed by the TP folks (their mantra of "taxation without representation" is particularly silly), I think that this is an interesting development in American political symbolism. As I've mentioned in earlier posts, political variations on the US flag are more typical of liberal rather than conservative movements, and this one is a notable exception. Also, they seem to have belatedly realized that the earlier campaign of flying the US flag upside down was gaining them as many enemies as friends.

There's no question that Jeff is making money from this flag, but I think he would argue (correctly) that it's a genuine political symbol rather than just a money-maker.

Peter Ansoff

[flja]

I disagree. This "second revolution" flag really does seem to have gained some traction with the "Tea Party" movement, and is becoming a generally recognized political symbol. While I'm not very impressed by the TP folks (their mantra of "taxation without representation" is particularly silly), I think that this is an interesting development in American political symbolism. As I've mentioned in earlier posts, political variations on the US flag are more typical of liberal rather than conservative movements, and this one is a notable exception.

My experience on the net is that most of the people preaching about the American Revolution and the Constitution are in fact liberals. There is nothing particularly conservative about less government or lower taxes. Starting with the Hamiltonian Federalists American conservatives (along with conservatives elsewhere) have favored strong government as a break on human passions that can destabilize economic markets and disrupt societal cohesion. People that call for less government today are either liberals or libertarians who advocate liberty when what they really want is moral license to do whatever they want to do regardless of the consequences to others or society at large.

And it is utter stupidity for most Americans to complain about high taxes because most Americans don’t pay much of anything in taxes.

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

For 2007 people earning over $410,000 a year (the top 1%) paid over 40% of what the federal government collected in income taxes. People earning less than $32,000 a year (the bottom 50%) paid less than 3% of the federal income tax take.

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=155

In 2005 over 32% of all personal tax returns received by the IRS had 0 federal income tax liability. Of the returns sent by individuals filing separately, heads of households and surviving spouses over 61% had 0 federal income tax liability.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/15/pf/taxes/who_pays_most_least/index.htm

According to the Congressional Budget Office the top 1/5 of U.S. households earned 56% of the country’s pre-tax income in 2006 but they paid 86% of the country’s individual income tax burden. The top 1% of U.S. households earned 19% of the total pre-tax income for 2006 but paid 39% of the country’s individual income tax burden.

Counting all federal taxes (personal income, excise, corporate income and welfare taxes) the top 1/5 of U.S. households paid 69% of all federal taxes in 2006; the top 1% paid 28% of all federal taxes.

The Tea Party types likely have an ulterior motive apart from what they think are high taxes because most of them likely are not paying federal taxes.

[Greengo]

Flja, You sound as bad as the ones you are preaching against. This is a flag forum.

Why can't people stick to the subject of flags and go elsewhere to spout politics.

To Peter and all the other members who really like flags. Keep this a flag forum and leave politics out. No wonder this place draws all the radicals.

Fly your flag high and proud. That is what I thought this forum was all about!!!

[flja]

Flja, You sound as bad as the ones you are preaching against. This is a flag forum.

Why can't people stick to the subject of flags and go elsewhere to spout politics.

I am not the person that started this thread. And politics have been part of this thread since the first post in it. If you have a beef about this thread, stay out of it and leave me the Hell alone.

[Peter Ansoff]

Flja, Greengo, and everyone,

As I've pointed out here many times, you cannot separate flags and politics. Flags are, by their nature, political symbols, and doesn't make much sense to discuss them without also discussing what they symbolize. The trick is to keep the discussion dispassionate. For example: we can make the point that Americans' complaints about high taxes are, shall we say, ill-informed, without calling them stupid.

Yes, I like flags. However, one of the reasons that I find them fascinating is precisely because these pieces of cloth stir up such strong emotions in people. As I like to point out, this is what makes vexillologists different from other hobbyists, like stamp collectors or model railroaders. Nobody has ever risked his life on a battlefield for a stamp, or brought a case before the Supreme Court over a model train.

The point, though, is that we can discuss such things without falling off the edge into partisan bickering and name-calling. This thread is a good example. As most of you know, I disagree strongly with the views of the "Tea Party" movement; however, I think that their use of the "2nd Rev" flag is an interesting example of contemporary American political symbolism, and can be discussed in that context. This is one of the things that I hoped to accomplish when I agreed to administer this forum. For the most part, I think that it's been successful.

Again, politics is something that you can't avoid when you talk about flags. One person's patriotism is another person's propaganda, but we can discuss those differences like reasonable adults. I continue to believe that there is a place for a forum like this. I hope that you all agree and will try to help me keep it going in that spirit.

Thanks, and best regards to all,

Peter Ansoff
Forum Admin