[CultureGeek]

You are incorrect on several counts.

For starters do a bit of research on Thomas Jefferson. He reputedly called the Bible a "Dunghill" and said things like:
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

However, Jefferson was a Christian. To understand how a Christian can object to Paul and the Bible, I recommend that you read Elaine Pagels's.Adam, Eve, and the Serpent or The Origin of Satan. You should know the history of your faith too.

Franklin, on the other hand, was a Deist and reputedly attended meetings of the "Hellfire Club." He used to say things like:

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

Adams had his doubts too.

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

As for America being a Christian nation:

John Adams said:
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli states:
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

There's more but I have to give up the computer now.

America is based on majority rule, but not _just_ majority rule. The Constitution exists to temper majority rule with protection for minority rights.

And for the nth time, "under God" is not original to the pledge and, as American_flag_UK notes, the pledge doesn't sound as good with the 1950s addition. Like many citizens, my allegiance to the US is based on our freedoms and our pledge should honor them. The additional words reflect a shameful incident when a mad senator was able to launch a vicious attack on the freedom of thought that makes America great. As such, there is no reason to keep the words in.

Quotes found at:
AMERICA - Not a Christian Nation!
Positive Atheism's Big List of John Adams Quotations
Fo-Fu: Positive Atheism's Big List of Quotations

[Peter Ansoff]

However, Jefferson was a Christian

A partial clarification: Jefferson was not actually a Christian the sense that most modern conservative Christians understand it. He believed that Jesus's philosophy was good and worthy of emulation, but did not believe that Jesus was the divine son of God, performed miracles, or was born of a virgin. Jefferson himself explained it this way in a letter to Benjamin Rush in 1803:

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing that he never claimed any other." [TJ's emphasis]

He explained what he meant by "corruptions" in one of his letters to John Adams in 1823:

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those, calling themselves expositors of them , who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States, will do away all this artifical scaffolding and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

BTW, these quotes come from the book In God We Trust, The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, by Norman Cousins. Anyone who is interested in the subject should have this book on his/her shelf; it is mostly a collection of the founders' actual writings on the subject. It's out of print, but used copies are easily found on the internet. (I bought my copy for less than $10).

America is based on majority rule, but not _just_ majority rule. The Constitution exists to temper majority rule with protection for minority rights.

Precisely. I'm afraid that our friend Bobby is confused about some of the fundamental principles of our government. I found this statement of his particularly frightening:

religious people . . . outnumber non-religious folk even now by quite a large number in this country. so, logically someone who is not religious should naturally grow thick skin and push silently forward without trying to enforce his/her godless or other godly views on a society that he/she is clearly a minority.

That's the way it works in Saudi Arabia, but not in the United States of America.

Peter Ansoff

[CultureGeek]

That's kind of what I was saying with the Elaine Pagels stuff on primitive Christianity, although that particular incarnation of it is more like the one that I heard about because it caused a schism of my own religion (Quakerism, of which I'm now an even more fringey member, being Pagan) in the 19th century, which lasted until the mid-20th. The line between that sort of Gnostic approach and Franklin's Deism is pretty fine, but nevermind that. I will refrain from comment on the way in which far too many "modern conservative Christians understand [Christianity]," in order to avoid the temptation to opine that Jefferson knew what he was talking about.

Another hole in the comment you mentioned is that we tree-hugging dirt worshippers aren't trying to impose our religious views on anybody. All we want is the right to practice our views (in a manner that does not interfere with any compelling interests of society at large), and a lot of us kind of care about the Constitution, which says the government is not supposed to pick one religion and shove it down everyone's throats.

BTW, something occured to me. One point that I think a lot of the would-be theocrats ignore is that the Framers were not unaware of the existence of religions other than Christianity. If they had wanted to make America a Christian Nation, why does the Constitution not have any wording saying "except for the Mohammadians," or "of course, this bit doesn't apply to the Jews," or "unless a bunch of Hindoos start showing up?" Christianity was certainly the religion with which they were most familiar but it wasn't the only one that existed, and they put an awful lot of thought into the Constitution. Under the circumstances, I doubt that they would just forget to exclude those other religions from the full protections of the Constitution.

Yeesh, I am so exasperated with myself. I just came here to share my recipe for a patriotic 4th of July dessert but get me started on the First Amendment and you'll never hear the end of it.

[Peter Ansoff]

One point that I think a lot of the would-be theocrats ignore is that the Framers were not unaware of the existence of religions other than Christianity.

Absolutely correct. When the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom was being debated in 1785, an amendment was proposed to add the words "Jesus Christ" to the preamble. As Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography:

" . . . the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of [the Act's] protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

Even in the late 18th century, Americans foresaw a day when Christians, Muslims, Hindus and "infidels" would live together as equals in Virginia and other states. A nice thought on this 4th of July.

Peter Ansoff

[CultureGeek]

Great information, thanks I'll have to look into Jefferson's autobiography during my next break from school. Franklin's is already on my list.

Complete (but funny) non-sequiter: This cartoon reminds me of what I was saying about getting drawn into debates. It is so very like me that I just had to laugh.

[american_flag_uk]

Lol culturegeek - yes that cdartoon is DEFINTLY you!!

[Peter Ansoff]

Great cartoon, Culture Geek. Also, good to hear from you again -- I was starting to get worried!

Best,

Peter A.