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. I DO !!! I DO !!! Pick ME ! Pick ME ! Me, Me, ME !!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE !!! (If you don't mind?) Robin ....
  1. #11
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    .
    I DO !!!

    I DO !!!

    Pick ME !

    Pick ME !

    Me, Me, ME !!!

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE !!!

    (If you don't mind?)

    Robin
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  2. #12
    NAVA1974 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    Well, Robin, what do you have to say for yourself? Does the United States Flag Code say that a printed representation of a flag is NOT a flag?
    Nick

  3. #13
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    .
    Originally, I wanted to post an entry here about what "IS" and "is NOT" a Flag, or more precisely, what MY personal opinion of what "IS" and "is NOT" a Flag.

    But... I decided not to because it would take too long for me to type out the whole thing.

    Suffice it for me to say that, in my personal opinion, you're ALL both "right" and "wrong". Roger Rowe is both right and wrong, NAVA1974 is both right and wrong, and the U.S. Flag Code is both right and wrong.

    Somebody is probably wondering, "Both right and wrong? In what way?"

    And they would probably have good reasons to wonder. But, again, it would probably take me too long to type the whole thing out.

    Maybe it's the DIFFERENCE between ME and a PICTURE of me. I am ME and a picture of me is, well, JUST a picture. One (ME!) is a living, breathing, three dimensional, sentient, human being, and the other is, you guessed it, JUST a picture of me.

    My wife just notified me that dinner is ready.

    Talk to you later !

    Robin "Spaghetti for dinner? Oh, Boy!" Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    Tut Tut! Your wife is slaving away at the cooker and your on the computer?? That sounds a like a similer arrangement that me and my boyfriend have!!

    To me - a flag is something that is capable of being flown off a pole.. in the case of the US flag - a rectangular piece of cloth with said US flag design on it.

    For me I've grown up and live in the UK all my life- we have no flag code here. Really to be honest I think some of the stuff in the US flag code is just silly... or at least the reasons behind the rules are not properly explained.

    I think the vexillologists of the USA (and me if I was to be invited :P) should get together and draw up a new flag code, then go and present it to the big guys that make all the decisions and try and get a more up to date easier to understand flag code that todays people can understand and adhere to- and that makes sense in modern day life.

    For me there is certain things that are OK and that aren't OK when it comes to 'respect' for things with the flag or its design printed on them

    The 'not ok' things for me are:

    DOORMATS
    NAPKINS
    and basically anything which is meant for the purpose of cleaning dirt off things or people.

    Why?? because to me that is disrespectful to purposely wipe dirt upon the design of the flag because though it is not the flag - it still represents it.

    I have a couple of flag printed napkins also with the Statue of Liberty on. They were given to me and I save those as collectors items.. There is no way I will use them for their intended purpose.

    Everything else with the flag design on it is perfectly fine with me- but I don't treat these things with the same respect as I would a flag. If its a flag printed shirt, its treated like all my other shirts.
    I am NOT going to start making sure that its on its own right when I hang the shirts out on the washing line!!

  5. #15
    NAVA1974 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    Robin and American_flag_uk:
    Thanks for helping to clarify the issue. My position that a printed image IS a flag is based my interpretation of the wording in the Flag Code, not my personal opinion as to whether or not a flag has to be able to "fly." I agree that this is an open question and the Flag Code is not the best and final answer. HOWEVER since the U.S. Flag Code is officially the law of the land (albeit unenforceable) I claim that when the Code says that a flag should not be printed on a napkin, it means that a flag printed on a napkin is a flag. If it said that AN IMAGE of the flag should not be printed on a napkin, then the image on the napkin would not be a flag. Just like those two Civil War envelopes I illustrated - I believe the one showing the little waving flag is just a patriotic illustration, but when the flag covers the entire front of the envelope then the only way to address the envelope is to deface "The Flag" by writing across the stripes. Of course, that was not thought inappropriate during the mid-19th century they way it is now.
    Nick

  6. #16
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    .
    Hi, Nick !

    If you are correct, then, in "civilian" terms, you are correct ONLY in the District of Columbia, Washington D.C.

    If you are incorrect, then, in "civillian" terms, you are incorrect in ALL 50 States and ALL other United States Territories, Districts, Possessions, Protectorates, and commonwealths.

    United States Code Title 4
    Chapter 1 — The Flag

    Section §3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag

    Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court.

    The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.


    There are only TWO sentences in Section 3, and BOTH of them refer ONLY to people living "within the District of Columbia" (AKA: "Washington D.C.") and their actions and the applied definitions thereof. ALL other areas and juristiction OUTSIDE of the District of Columbia thus are NOT bound by the restrictions and descriptions rendered in Section 3.


    See how "EASY" that was ???

    EASY, that is, until we check out "Section 8 (Respect for flag)" !!!


    Robin Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  7. #17
    NAVA1974 is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    Since the Flag Code is in the Code of Federal Regulations, it is a binding requirement within the entire USA. However, as you correctly note, only within D.C. are penalties specified for violations of provisions of the Flag Code. So if you are marching in Maryland or Virginia and carrying defaced American flags along the way you might want to hide them prior to crossing into the District!
    Nick

  8. #18
    roger.rowe is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    Sorry, I missed a couple of days, so let me catch up.

    Nick, when you state "My position that a printed image IS a flag is based my interpretation of the wording in the Flag Code, not my personal opinion as to whether or not a flag has to be able to 'fly.'", you imply that my position that a flag must be able to fly has less weight than your position. When in fact, your interpretation is an opinion, just as my opinion is an interpretation.

    I stand by my opinion that the Flag Code, by defining how the US Flag may be displayed, also defines the attributes by which one can recognize a US Flag. That is, I believe that to be considered a US Flag, an item must possess the ability to be displayed in the manner prescribed within the Flag Code; that an item incapable of being displayed in the manner prescribed for a US Flag is not a US Flag.

    I do not believe that "the average person [upon seeing an item] without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America", means that said item is a US Flag; I do concede that they may believe that it represents a US Flag. I believe that the Flag Code defines the US Flag as a tangible object that represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.

    While some may find clothing that appears representative of the US Flag as inappropriate and lacking in taste, others consider this as a demonstration of their patriotism. Of course, Nick’s interpretation that is more inclusive would prevent “Uncle Sam” from marching in a parade on July 4 as the clothing represents the US Flag!

    Roger

  9. #19
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    .
    Hi, Nick !


    QUOTE : "Since the Flag Code is in the Code of Federal Regulations, it is a binding requirement within the entire USA."

    Untrue.

    For many reasons the above statement is untrue. In regards to this particular thread, however, the MAIN reason for it's inaccuracy is that there are a great many provisions contained in various "sections" and sub-sections" in the U.S. Code and it's Titles and Chapters that are "location" or "site" specific. Wherein, their provisions, rules, regulations, etc., pretain to that location and to that location ONLY and have no force of effect in any other juristiction outside of the one cited.

    An example might be a section or sub-section of the U.S. Code that specifically ensures that one particular type of fish, out of many, are "protected" in one river and in that one river only, but are NOT protected in another. In other words, "location" or "site" specific.


    Such is the case of the United States Code, Title 4 - The Flag, Chapter 1, (Section) §3. (See Below)


    QUOTE : "However, as you correctly note, only within D.C. are penalties specified for violations of provisions of the Flag Code."

    Contrary to your belief, I did NOT note, correctly or incorrectly, that, "only within D.C. are penalties specified for violations of provisions of the Flag Code".

    What I pointed out, and correctly noted, was that the ENTIRE portion (all two sentences) of United States Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, §3, applies to the area of the Federal District of Columbia (D.C.) and ONLY to D.C., entirely EXCLUDING all other civilian areas in the United States of America.

    QUOTE : "There are only TWO sentences in Section 3, and BOTH of them refer ONLY to people living "within the District of Columbia" (AKA: "Washington D.C.") and their actions and the applied definitions thereof. ALL other areas and juristiction OUTSIDE of the District of Columbia thus are NOT bound by the restrictions and descriptions rendered in Section 3."


    The FIRST sentence in Section 3 tells us, not once but twice, that it solely focused on that area, and ONLY on that area "within the District of Columbia".

    The SECOND sentence in Section 3 gives us a "description" or "meaning" of what a "Flag" is "within the District of Columbia" as it pretains to the FIRST Sentence. At the very beginning of the 2nd sentence it makes that point very clear : "The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein...". The term, "as used herein" means within United States Code, Title 4 - The Flag, Chapter 1, (Section) §3

    I hope this will clear up any misunderstandings regarding United States Code, Title 4 - The Flag, Chapter 1, (Section) §3.

    Have a Flag-tastic Day !!!

    Robin Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

  10. #20
    Robin Hickman is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Proper American flag display in print advertising

    .
    Hello, Roger.Rowe !

    Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site forums !


    As I stated in my second posting in this thread, I believe that YOU are both "right" and "wrong", and that NAVA1974 (Nick) is both "right" and "wrong", and that the U.S. Flag Code is both "right" and "wrong".

    While your mis-guided attempts to use convoluted "logic" and parsed out words from un-related sentences and paragraphs to "prove" your point have been pretty much "off-the-mark", they have, at least, served a useful purpose in showing how difficult it is to "prove a negative".

    I've read and re-read your entries and I must say that each time I read through your list of "proofs" and "attributes" as to what you think constitutes a "Flag", it always crosses my mind that YOUR list of "proofs" & "attributes" could also be applied to "prove" that YOU are a Flag, too!


    Silly of me, isn't it?


    In my 2nd posting to this thread (previously mentioned) I tried to show what I thought the difference was between a "Flag" and an "image" of a Flag when I used a metaphor about myself in place of the Flag, and I QUOTE :

    "Maybe it's the DIFFERENCE between ME and a PICTURE of me. I am ME and a picture of me is, well, JUST a picture. One (ME!) is a living, breathing, three dimensional, sentient, human being, and the other is, you guessed it, JUST a picture of me."


    When Nick (NAVA1974) posted the two Civil War era "covers", he was able to show the difference between something that had a "Flag" printed ON it (as "acceptable") and something that was printed to "look like" the Flag (as "unacceptable").

    In the last paragraph of your most recent posting, you wrote : "While some may find clothing that appears representative of the US Flag as inappropriate and lacking in taste, others consider this as a demonstration of their patriotism. Of course, Nick’s interpretation that is more inclusive would prevent “Uncle Sam” from marching in a parade on July 4 as the clothing represents the US Flag!"

    I believe that you have mistaken Nick's position. In fact, I believe that it is quite the opposite! I mean, we're talking about UNCLE SAM !!!


    I believe that Nick would be quite accepting of Uncle Sam's "attire"!


    I believe Nick would find Uncle Sam's "uniform" to be acceptable!


    I wouldn't be at all surprised if sometime in the past 35 years, Nick, himself, marched in a parade AS our very own Uncle Sam !!!


    In fact, WHO could POSSIBLY object to Uncle Sam when he's dressed like THIS ??? Everybody LOVES Uncle Sam when he's dressed up like THIS !!! :


    UncleSam-PullMyFinger.jpg


    SEE ???


    Have a "Uncle Sammy" Day, everybody !!!


    Robin "Pull My Finger!" Hickman
    .
    "All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good People To Stand By And Do Nothing"

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