red and white stripes only... what is it.

[hershey]

i saw a flag that for all practical purposes had the 13 stripes but no blue field w/ stars. it was flown in conjunction w/ a don't tread on me flag. i am curious as to what it represents. thanx.

[Peter Ansoff]

i saw a flag that for all practical purposes had the 13 stripes but no blue field w/ stars. it was flown in conjunction w/ a don't tread on me flag. i am curious as to what it represents.

I'd say that there are two possiblities. You might be able to determine which one you saw from the context.

1. The US Navy flies a "jack" on the bows of its ships that consists of 13 red and white stripes with a stretched-out rattlesnake and the "Dont Tread On Me" motto. This was adopted for Navy use in 2002 as a symbol of resolve during the war on terrorism. There is a legend that a similar flag was flown by the Continental Navy during the Revolutionary War, but this is probably not actually true.

2. Many history books refer to a plain red-and-white striped flag being used by the Sons of Liberty during the events leading up to the Revolution. This story is based on a relic that's owned by the Bostonian Society, but the evidence that the Society's flag really had anything to do with the Sons of Liberty is very weak.

Replicas of both of these two flags are sold by many flag manufacturers. I assume that the "Dont Tread On Me" flag that you saw with it was the so-called "Gadsden Flag" -- yellow with the coiled-up rattlesnake and the motto.

I hope that this helps.

Best regards,

Peter Ansoff

[NAVA1974]

Recall that the flag resolution of 14 June 1777 begins with ""Resolved, That the flag of the United States be thirteen stripes, alternate red and white;..."

That can be interpreted as a complete statement, specifying the flag that is known as the "Merchant Stripes." Of course the Resolution goes on to describe the "Union" of 13 stars, which is also a stand-alone flag. But nowhere does the Resolution require that the "flag" include a "union." In practice, the National Ensign (or Naval flag) consisted of the Merchant stripes with the union in the canton.

Nick A

[Robin Hickman]

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From the "Flag of the United States" article on Wikipedia.org :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States




Something like this ???



Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Peter Ansoff]

Robin wrote: Something like this ???

Yes, that's the Navy jack that I referred to in my previous post. I wrote an article about the history of this flag a few years ago; you can read it here:

http://www.nava.org/documents/raven/...4_p001-060.pdf

Nick wrote: That can be interpreted as a complete statement, specifying the flag that is known as the "Merchant Stripes." Of course the Resolution goes on to describe the "Union" of 13 stars, which is also a stand-alone flag. But nowhere does the Resolution require that the "flag" include a "union."

Well, maybe, but it seems to me that this is really stretching a point. The term "union" by itself was very seldom used to refer to a flag; it was almost always the "Union flag", "Great Union flag", "Union Jack", etc. If the author of that motion (presumably Mr. Hopkinson) had meant to describe two different flags, I think that he would have done so more explicitly. The most straightforward reading of the whole motion is that it describes one single flag, with stripes in the field and stars in the union.

It's true that the design of the union (blue with white stars) was used as a naval jack as early as the Revolutionary War. However, I think that this was just a natural development, following British usage.

Peter Ansoff

[Robin Hickman]

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Hi, Peter!

I thought that was the one referred to.

I'll go read your article about the first naval jack. But for the record, before I go read it, I currently don't believe that the first naval jack featured a toothless, stretched-out rattlesnake that was not in a position (coiled) to "strike" (if you know what I mean...).


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA

[Robin Hickman]

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I have read the article, but declined to read through all of the associated appendices.

So..... Let me get this straight..... The belief of the (unproven) existence of the U.S. Navy's "First Union Jack" got its mythical start by a BRITISH artist who, at that time, had never seen any representation of any of the rebellious American Colonies' flags yet went ahead and took extreme "artistic license" in creating it?

Hmmmm..... In a weird way it almost makes sense.


I think it was Joseph Campbell who said something along the lines of, when the myth and reality disagree, people will usually want to believe the myth. Or maybe it was something like, when "the real" and "the legend" are at odds, believe the legend.

Or was that Yoda.....

I can't remember the exact, or inexact, quotation or its source..... too bad!

Any way, here's a quote from John F. Kennedy on the subject :

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."


Robin
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[csaanv]

Nice article Peter.

[Peter Ansoff]

Thanks, Mike! It was fun to research and write. As always happens, some of it is already out-of-date. For example, the story of the British newspaper item about Hopkins' flags turns out to be more complicated than I thought. I may have to write an addendum sometime . . .

Peter A.