19-Star Flag On eBay GENUINE ???

Discussion in 'Flag Identification and Collecting' started by Robin Hickman, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .
    What The FLAG ??? (WTF???)


    Could a 19-Star Flag (c. 1818-1819) up for auction on eBay with a starting bid of only $0.99 (99 cents) actually be GENUINE ???


    HECK! I don't know! YOU be the judge!


    http://cgi.ebay.com/1858-61-19-Star-American-Flag-appraised-pre-Civil-War-/130452742847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5f96e2bf


    DESCRIPTION : "Large US Flag 4 ft x 9 ft with fourteen alternate red & white stripes and a blue canton bearing 19 stars. The stars are seperately appliqued to each side & as is usual in flags of this age they "point" in different directions, the fabric is lightweight cotton & although the colors are not too faded , the flag is in overall poor condition. This flag was appraised several years ago & this appraisal will be included it says this is a pre-Civil War political flag !! only a few of these have ever sold at auction! political civil war Flags have sold at auction between $17000 & $33,000 there is no record of a 19- star pre -Civil war flag ever being sold ! is this the only one with Confederacy ties!!!"




    Huh? (What The Flag???)



    PHOTOS :

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]




    You know what?


    Since the opening bid is only 99 cents, I'm going to bid on this "pre-Civil War" Flag. I mean, how often do I get the chance to actually bid on a "genuine" piece of history ????



    Robin Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    .
     
  2. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .
    My Fellow Flagateers !!! :D



    I have OFFICIALLY put my bid in for HISTORY !!! :D


    Actually, I put in 140 BIDS !!! :eek:


    TIME..... Will Tell..... :cool:




    Robin (i***c) Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    .
     
  3. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Up to $50 now...

    that whole 14 stripes thing is weird. Sellers only feedback recent enough to view is from 2005, and notes the item was as decribed but damaged in shipment. Good news is that its hard to break a flag in shipment, unless you buy one with a pole (like a mini flag). It's his only item currently on sale, so I can't get a feel what he sells or his recent eBay history.

    I don't see a reserve price but it you do bid on this, big with a big grain of salt.

    It if was really appraised at $17k, I don't see the seller letting it go for $50, so expect some last minute dirty dealing/ shill bidding if the item is genuine.
     
  4. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .
    Hi, Coasterville !!! :D


    QUOTE : "It if was really appraised at $17k, I don't see the seller letting it go for $50, so expect some last minute dirty dealing/ shill bidding if the item is genuine."


    I don't think he meant that HIS particular Flag had been appraised at $17K.

    What he said was, QUOTE : "political civil war Flags have sold at auction between $17000 & $33,000 there is no record of a 19- star pre -Civil war flag ever being sold ! is this the only one with Confederacy ties!!!"


    What I don't get (amongst other things) is exactly what "Confederacy ties" has to do with a 19-Star Flag. Although there was NO OFFICIAL 19-Star Flag to my knowledge, if there was then it would have been somewhere around 1818 or 1819.


    Oh, well..... 142 bids and counting !!! :eek:


    Robin
    .
     
  5. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    19 star flag? Most likely of US Civil War vintage, or for the centennial of Inidana in 1916. Material appears to be cotton sheeting, similar to the material in my 33 star flag:
    33 Star Flag - 32 Red Stars & 1 Yellow Star, 6 stripes ca 1860 - Louisiana / Confederate | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    For pics of a ACW 18-star flag see page 78 in the Mastai book. Although officially frowned upon, some northerners did make flags that only contained enough stars to represent the states loyal to the union, athough you would have to subtract all the states that officially formed the CSA, the border states, and others to get down to 18 loyal states.

    A 19-star flag from the ACW period should auction on eBay for $2000 to $3500 but no more. At a classy brick and mortar auction house you might stretch it to $5K, and retail price? Well, look at what the seller thinks his flag is worth...

    By the way, does anyone have good enough screen resolution to see if the sewing is done by machine or by hand? I see some evidence in the star field to tell me that machine stitching is present. That is an obvious giveaway that the flag cold not date to the 1810's.

    Nick
     
  6. AmericaHurrah

    AmericaHurrah Member

    It's machine-sewn. The sewing machine didn't exist in the period he/she suggests. It's last-half 19th century cotton.

    My opinion is that the canton was shortened at the fly end. I may be wrong here, as I can't see it in person, but my above statements are correct. No, it's not worth $17k. Maybe not worth $170.
     
  7. AmericaHurrah

    AmericaHurrah Member

    ...too tired I guess. I meant the hoist, not the fly. And by that I mean that he/she removed stars. My guess is that it had 44 or 45 of them to begin with.
     
  8. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .
    Seller has answered 3 questions regarding his 19-Star Flag (as of 11-07-2010). Questions & Answers are listed below. For any additional Q & A, check item's eBay page.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/1858-61-19-Star-American-Flag-appraised-pre-Civil-War-/130452742847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5f96 e2bf


    I Don't have the highest bid but I do have the MOST bids !!! :D


    BTW : The seller says that the Flag's appraisal was done by none other than the world-famous David Martucci of the great State of Maine !!! :eek:


    [ Personal NOTE : Apparently, this might be an "Exclusion" type of Flag from the Civil War era (1861-1865) rather than from 1818-1819 that I questioned in my earlier post . I don't remember the "full" or proper name of such Flags, but a Civil War era "exclusionary" Flag excluded the Stars from the Flag's Union of those States that were at that time in "rebellion". The "trick" is knowing the particular year & getting the math right. ie. How many States were in the Union at that time MINUS how many were in rebellion = number of Stars in the Union of the "exclusionary" Flag. ]


    Robin (i***c) Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    ______________________________________________

    Questions & Answers (As Of 11-07-2010)

    Q: where did you acquire the flag? what type of fabric is it? I assume the stars and stripes are sewn...correct? thanks. Nov-07-10
    A: I bought the flag at an antique show here in Washington state almost 4 years ago, it is light-weight cotton stitched with what appears to be poor quality stitching,you can see how the stars are stitched in the close up pics

    Q: What is the name of the appraiser and where is the individual from? Nov-07-10
    A: Martucci he is from Maine & specializes in Antique flags , now get to bidding!!

    Q: I don't see how a 19 star U.S. flag relates to 1858 to 1861. A 19 star flag is was current upon the admission of Indiana in 1816 and was proper for only one year. So when are you representing that this flag was actually made? Don't misunderstand me, I like this flag and want it in my collection, but I would like to know what I am bidding on. Frankly, I don't have that much confidence in the appraisal you refer to, but 19 stars is very rare. Bob Nov-07-10
    A: The appraisal states he thought it is 1858-61 political flag & his theory is it was made to show there were 34 states & 15 were going to leave the Union,to be Confederate leaving 19 Union States again this is the theory of one Antique Flag appraiser
    .
     
  9. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .
    If I remember correctly, Dave Martucci is a member here on these forums.

    I think he uses "Vexman" as his "handle" here but I could be wrong. :cool:

    Anyway, he is very well-known and he has friends here so I'm sure sooner or later (hopefully sooner!) one of our members will ask him about this particular Flag!

    On the other hand, I could be totally wrong! If that's the case, forget what I wrote and move on to the next reply in this thread!!! :eek:


    Robin Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    .
     
  10. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    .

    SEMI "Off Subject"..... :D


    A recently completed (11-08-2010) eBay auction for a "ORIGINAL 1861 CIVIL WAR CAVALRY GUIDON / AMERICAN FLAG".

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320610109293&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


    LOTS of pictures and an extensive written description! :D



    RESULT ??? :confused:



    Ended: Nov 08, 201017:03:09 PST
    Bid history: 57 bids
    Winning bid: US $32,766.00 :D


    I'm NO auction or Flag, or Flag Auction expert, but I'd have to say that all of the accompanying detail description, pictures, and other information REALLY helped this auction to be successful. Of course it didn't hurt that the Flag was REAL and very, VERY RARE !!!


    Robin Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
    .
     
  11. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    That silk guidon was a true museum piece and the final bid price reflected its rarity. The 19-star eBay flag can't touch it for provenance, historic interest, or monetary value.

    I had the privilege of adding two decent 13-star flags to my collection recently. Both are ca 1900 with machine zig-zag stitching but have different star patterns. You are welcome to see them at my Flickr photostream:

    Flickr: nicka21045's Photostream

    The larger flag with 8 stars in a circle came from China Sea Marine Trading Company in Maine. I got to know Steve Bunker when his shop was here in Baltimore years ago. He was the source of a number of nice flags, US and foreign, now in my collection.

    The smaller flag was purchased at last weekend's Civil War Collector's Show in Gettysburg.

    Nick
     
  12. flagcollector

    flagcollector New Member

    Hi All,

    Just an opinion, but this flag may have been made for the Indiana Centennial in 1916, which would look right for its later period construction details (machine sewing, row configuration, etc.) It isn't a period 19 Star for sure, and most likely not Civil War era.

    Best,
    Anthony
     

Share This Page