Added to my collection for flag day

Discussion in 'Flag Identification and Collecting' started by coasterville, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    For flag day 2009 I added a cotton "Betsy Ross" pattern flag to my collection. It has sewn stars and stripes, and the header material looks particularly strong. The only oddity to it is that is has the largest grommets I have ever seen on a flag, mind you this is a 3x5 flag. I just checked and standard Flag Rings like I use to attach my flags to my poles are too small and pass right through these grommets.

    I guess I will need to resort to zip ties when I want to fly this one...

    As I heard when I visited Six Flags last month: "More Flags, More Fun!"
  2. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    Hey, Coasterville ! :D

    Where's you get the Flag? :confused:

    Robin :rolleyes:
  3. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    That'sodd I wrote a reply, and hit the button to post it but it never appeared, let me try again.


    I bought the flag in question from Flags Georgia, which trades online at Flags Georgia I have ordered several things from them, including the miniature world flags set that lines my second floor railing. I find the prices to be significantly cheaper than going to a bricks and mortar flag dealer, and the service is incredible, I have never waited more than 2 business days after ordering to receive my order.

    Here is the listing: Betsy Ross 13 Star Cotton Flag

    This flag came in a reuseable plastic pouch that snaps shut.

    Star field detail:
    Super close up:
  4. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    Hey, Coasterville ! :D

    Yep! I've heard of "Flags! Georgia". In fact, I've got them bookmarked (along with about 50-60 other vendors). I've never bought anything from them though (yet). :cool:

    GOOD looking Flag ! :D

    Heavens To BETSY !!! :eek:


    PS. I really like the idea of a re-sealable (re-useable) plastic bag. I'd think it would come in extra handy to store the flags you might not use very often!

    Last edited: Jun 19, 2009
  5. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    BTW, Coaster,

    I forgot to ask, what size are the grommets. If you don't know the grommets size by "grommet size" (ie. #1, #2, #3, etc.), what is the inner diameter (ID)?

    THANX !

  6. Hey there Coasterville

    Nice flag :)

    I have one of those aswell- though mine is 3x5, cotton bunting with cotton stars.
    I have preference for flags where the canton is around 2/5th the way across the flag. Its interesting how some flag companies make flags where the canton is nearly or at the half way mark across the overall flag, like yours appears to be!.. Can they not spare the extra few inches of stripes?

    What is the overall size of that flag?
  7. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    It looks like a "regular" House Flag. Meaning, it looks like it's a 3'x'5' Betsy Ross Flag.

    It is a very GOOD-looking Flag, but I think the Stars are a little "small" for the Field they're in. They are probably the same size of Stars (approximately 2" point-to-point) that you would find on most American-made 3'x5' 50 Star Flags.

    In my humble opinion (IMHO), for what it's worth (FWIW), because there are only 13 Stars instead of 50 "filling" the Field, the Stars should be larger so as to take up a little more room and be a little more "esthetically appealing".

    Say, about 3" point-to-point ??? :rolleyes:

    Just a thought.....

  8. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Wow, I never realized my flag purchase would create such interest.

    Okay, I got out Ye Olde Ruler and measured a star, I just picked one of the 13 at random they all look the same - 2.5" point to point.

    The grommets themselves appear to be 1.25" diameter, and the grommet hole is 11/16"

    The canton measures approx 25"x19"

    I checked FOTW and they don't seem to have a pattern or style guide for this design.

    Oh, and I verified it is a 3x5 flag :)

    The flag and its pouch have no tags or markings giving origin or manufacturer.
  9. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    Hi, Coasterville ! :D
    Hi, American_Flag_UK ! :D

    I have TWO of my flags flying out in front of my house today.

    The first one is my "official" Flag that flies in front of my house just about every day. It is an Annin & Co. 3'x5' SunGlo Acid-dyed SolarMax nylon 50-Star Flag. I bought it last June (2007) on eBay from a guy in Vermont that used to own a Flag Shop. I bought all seven that he had for sale for $69.93 and he threw in the eighth one for free. I'm flying the "8th" one.

    My NEW 13-Star (Betsy Ross) 3'x5' printed polyester Flag that I got about a week ago from "The Flag King" on eBay ($7.95 +FREE S&H). I don't know where it was made, but considering its materials & construction (if you know what I mean...), I'd say China. I can't remember if the bag was marked or not (Flag isn't).

    In comparing the two Flags' Stars, the 50-Star Flag's Stars are 2" point-to-point, and the Betsy Ross Flag's are 3" across (P2P). See photos below.

    The "cantons" ("Unions") are of slightly different sizes. While both Flags cantons "hoists" measure approximately 19", the "fly length" of the Unions is markedly different. The 50-Star Flag's Union's fly is about 27", and the Betsy Ross' is about 22". To sum up, the 50-Star Flag's Union measures approximately 19"x27", and the Betsy Ross' about 19"x22". See photos below.

    2FlagsFlying-OutMyFrontDoor.JPG :

    2Flags-Unions.JPG :

    13Star-3inch-Pt2Pt.JPG :

    50Star-2inch-Pt2Pt.JPG :

    I've got a couple of "quibbles" that I have about my "new" Betsy Ross Flag.

    One is that the grommets are both too large (I estimate that they are about a size #8) and too light-weight (more like "eyelets" than grommets).

    Another one is that the Stars are all pointing "up". A minor point really. It's just that I would prefer that they all would point "outward".

    That's all from me about this for now !

    Robin Hickman
  10. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member


    FLAG Grommets : A Primer :

    Metal Grommets have been used on Flags' headers since about the American Civil War. I don't know when they started being categotized by specific sizes. I do have a pretty good idea about their present day sizing.

    If the Flag-making industry has a "standard" size for grommets that would probably be a Size #2 grommet, at least for the "house" sized Flags (3x5, 4x6, 5x8). Smaller Flags, such as for small boats or classrooms, usually have narrower headers and weigh less, so they use smaller grommets (Size #00, #0, or #1).

    There are different types of grommets, so not all grommets are created equal. In fact not ALL grommet types will necessarily have the same ID for the sizes listed below.

    Metal Grommet Sizes (Inner Diameter = ID)

    Size = I.D.
    #00 = 3/16"
    #0 = 1/4"
    #1 = 9/32"
    #2 = 3/8" ("Standard")
    #3 = 7/16"
    #4 = 1/2"
    #5 = 5/8"
    #6 = 13/16"

    Hope this helps !

    Robin "I Am Secure In The Size Of My Inner Diameter!" Hickman
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  11. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Yeah, I wonder if my new Betsy Ross has such large grommets because of the sheer weight of the flag. Its cotton, and when I compare it to my cotton Bennington (which is an Annin Bulldog line flag) the nBetsy Ross is a heavier cotton.

    It looks like there is no official style guide given how varied our two flags are in terms of canton size, size of the stars, etc. I suppose we are back at "Does it look right"

    In terms of those $8 poly flags, I'd say you are safe to assume they are not of American origin. A great thing about eBay is you can get just about any flag you want, printed on poly for around $5-$10. (3x5) They look pretty good, I just don't know how durable they are. (Think back to the deluge of printed poly 50-star american flags that hit our country shortly after 9/11 when every shopkeeper wanted to appear patriotic and cash in on the fact that our own leading flagmakers couldn't keep up with the sudden demand. I know you were lucky to get a couple months out of those if you wanted to fly them constantly) I know thats what Flags Goergia deals in with their printed poly budget line, but if you are only going to fly those types of flags sparingly, they may last a while. Since American_Flags_UK is reading this thread, I just chose my printed poly union jack to look at, and its tags clearly state it came from a nation that just hosted the summer Olympics.

    In rereading the Flags Goergia advert for the 3x5 cotton Betsy Ross, I note the phrase "Made in USA" is missing. That combined with no tags or markings on the flag or its pouch lead me to beleive it might be an import, but what foreign flagmaker would put the effort into making a cotton flag with sewn stripes (with color matched thread even, red thread on the red strpes and white thread on the white stripes) and sewn stars?

    Thats just one of my quirks, I need to have sewn stars and stripes on any American flag I buy. My *official* flag is an Annin Nyl-Glo, which meets those qualifications, as well as being American made. From what I understand, and looking in the Annin catalog I have here, the Sun-Glo line is meant for tall inground poles where the viewr can't tell from their vantage point if the stars are printed or sewn, so they are printed so they appear even if you have a bright sun right behind them, whereas sewn stars will appear as dark blotches in that condition.

    It is fun to hand around a bricks and mortar flag shop that deals in full lines, not just the value lines you find at the big box stores. Watch a person come in and ask to buy an American flag then hear the kindly shopkeeper ask what type of pole they are using, how windy it is, what size do you want, what material do you want, how much do you want to spend, etc. The customer has this dumbfounded look like "All I wanted was a flag"
  12. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    I've bought many flags from Flags Georgia. They are quite good for my purposes, since I only display a given flag a few times per year, and the price is certainly right. Also, because they are lighter-weight, they actually fly better than nylon flags in light winds. It's interesting to watch a nylon flag and a poly flag flying side by side -- the poly flag will "take off" more quickly in a gust.

    The FG poly flags are obviously made abroad, and the quality control is iffy. Some of the ones I've received have had little blobs of a black tar-like substance on them -- I'm guessing that it's some byproduct of the printing process. The most amusing example was an Icelandic flag on which the horizontal bar of the cross was not straight -- it looked like a reflection in a fun-house mirror. For what it's worth, FG is very good about replacing defective flags.

    One tip about those poly flags -- if you plan to display them outdoors, be sure to iron them before you fly them. They typically come very tightly folded, and the dye tends to bleed along the creases if the flag gets wet.

    There seem to be different printing techniques for the poly flags, which result in different properties. Some of them are very flexible and "silky", while others are stiff. The silky ones seem to wear better, and they also look better.

    Peter Ansoff
  13. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    No ill will meant towards Flags Georgia, II too have ordered several flags from them. Great prices, fast service, what's not too like.
  14. Ahh Peter- yes - I know all all too well about the different printing techniques on flags..

    The stiff printed flags tend to lose their color quickly I find.. If they get wet the color fades.
    The white grays, the red goes slightly pinkish and the 'blue' goes more purple than it originally was to start.
    Another characteristic of these flags I noticed i the canton seems to start off at a purplish blue hue rather than the more standard blue more commonly seen - and goes more purple when fading.

    The soft printed flags are quite good in my opinion. I have quite a number of printed flags varying in style and materials used.
    Printed nylon seems to be the best in my opinion.
    I have a lovely nylon flag with big well proportioned well spaced printed stars, and sewn stripes, that flies well, and looks great in the sun.

    If there is any advantage towards printed flags vs sewn flags - the downside of a flag with all sewn stars and stripes flying in the wind- the sun cannot penetrate the stars, and in some cases the stars can appear black or dark.
    The sun will shine up a printed flags stars twinkly white!

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