Dave goes nuts, buys flag collection on eBay.

Discussion in 'Flag Identification and Collecting' started by coasterville, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Well, I went nuts. And impulse shopped my way into a 31 piece flag collection to augment my already extensive collection

    here is the haul: note flags with a @ are new to me

    Historical US:
    1) 15 Star Spangled Banner - cotton, sewn panel, appliqué aligned not dancing stars - Annin defiance
    2) Betsy Ross - cotton, sewn striped printed, upright stars - Annin Defiance
    @3) stars and bars? - 3 stripes, 7 appliqué stars in a circle - Annin nyl glo
    4) grand union - all printed, perma-nyl
    5) Bennington - sewn stripes, printed canton - no manufacturer marks, feels like thin cotton
    6) 48 star flag - all cotton, sewn stripes, appliqué stars, gusseted hoist corners. No manufacturer marks.
    @7) Fluer De Lis flag - cotton blue flag with appliqué charges - Annin Defiance.
    @8) first navy jack - printed, nylon, perma-nyl
    @9) Culpepper Flag - nylon, no manufacturer marks
    @10) Bedford Flag - Annin nyl-glo. All printed
    @11) "An Appeal to Heaven" green tree on white background - Annin Nyl-Glo
    @12) "Liberty and Union" British red ensign - all printed - no manufacturer marks.
    13) Gadsden Flag - printed - Annin nyl glo

    US States
    @14) Texas - sewn panel, giant appliqué star. - Annin Nyl Glo

    US Armed Forces
    @15) Air Force - cheap poly - no markings
    @16) Army - cheap poly - no markings

    Nations of the World
    17)!Germany - printed
    18) Australia - printed
    19) USSR - printed
    20) Wales - dragon - Annin Nyl Glo - much bolder dragon than my other example
    21) Switzerland - sewn charge - pole hem, no fringe - dettra dura nylon
    22) Scottish Rampant Lion - Annin Nyl Glo
    23) UK Union Jack - printed - Annin Nyl Glo
    24) France - sewn panel - Annin Nyl-Glo
    @25) East Germany - all printed - no markings
    @26) Norway - sewn panels, pole hem, no fridge - dettra dura nylon
    @27) Austria with Eagle - Cotton, all sewn, printed charge - Detra Bulldog
    @28) Scotland - blue with white X - sewn panel - Annin Nyl glo
    @29) England - St. George's Cross - sewn panel - Annin Nyl glo
    @30) Netherlands - cotton, sewn panel - Annin Defiance

    other
    @31) German "imperial" flag (red, white, black flag, eagle in the center, imperial cross in canton - unfortunately it needs some repair as it looks like someone took some aggression out on it. There is one rip from about the center of the imperial cross to the bottom of the red stripe in the canton
    - no manufacturer markings.

    And as a thank you they threw in a brand new in package nylon 50 star flag - Heath brand
     
  2. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Ok, I see a lot of views but no responses, so I'm not sure if anybody is interested in more details, but now I have had time to really go through the box, and do some basic cleaning. I can not stress enough how dusty these flags were, you know Pigpen in Charlie Brown, imagine that when I started to take these flags out of the box and unfold them,

    Ok, the details, here is the auction involved:
    Huge 31 Flag Collection Vintage U s USA American World Military Foreign Etc | eBay

    So, as I said 31 flag grab bag or box, but with some knowledge given, in the 31 flag set, the auction listing explicitly stated the following:

    Title: HUGE 31 Flag Collection Vintage U.S USA American World Military Foreign etc.

    And this warning that would have steered a sane person away: Most of the flags have moderate to significant staining from years of display. Also as noted these were mostly equipped with horizontal mountings, which means a third smaller grommet in the fly end upper corner. Some of the wire ties were still attached and after just trying to untwist them didn't work, a pair of wire cutters got rid of that garbage.

    The listing explicitly said the following for 19 of the 31 flags:
    1. 48 Star American Flag. Cotton with sewn on stars and stripes. (Size 3' x 6').
    2. U.S Bicentennial Flag Cotton with sewn on stripes and printe stars. (2' x 4')
    3. "Don't Tread upon Me" First U.S Navy Jack flag. Nylon (4' x 3')
    4. Culpeper Minutemen Flag Nylon (4' x 3')
    5. Bedford Flag Nylon "Victory or Death" (4x3)
    6. 1775 U.S Army Flag Nylon (4x3)
    7. U.S Air Force Flag Blue Nylon (3x5)
    8. Gadsden Flag "Don't Tread on Me" Yellow Nylon (3x5)
    9. 13 Star American Flag Cotton with sewn on stripes printed stars. (3x4)
    10. Tree Flag "Appeal to Heaven" Nylon (3x5)
    11. Flag of Whales (Red Dragon) Nylon (3x5)
    12. Union Jack (Flag of Great Britain) (3x5) Nylon
    13. Flag of the USSR (3x5) Nylon
    14. Liberty and Union Flag (3x5( Nylon
    15. Flag of England (St.Georges Cross) 3x5 Nylon
    16. Flag of Switzerland (3x5) Nylon
    17. Flag of Scotland (3x5) Nylon
    18. 15 Star American Flag Cotton with sewn on stars and stripes. (3x6)
    19. German WWI Imperial Flag (Nylon with tear near cross) (3x5)

    Then the listing also provided an extensive photo gallery, from that I was able to determine the following dozen flags which were not listed:
    20. Stars and Bars - 1st Confederate flag
    21. French Fleur De Lis
    22. East Germany
    23. Germamy Flag
    24. Netherlands Flag
    25. Norway Flag
    26. Flag of Australia

    From the first overall picture - I quickly picked out 27) France, 28) Texas and 29) Scottish Rampant Lion

    Leaving the two mystery flags as 30) Austria (sewn panels with printed eagle - cotton) and 31) grand union

    I think I am only allowed 4 pics per post, so I'll try to put up some pics over time.

    122312 017.jpg 122312 018.jpg 122312 019.jpg 122312 020.jpg

    I do feel a bit gyped in that I thought I saw a Japanese Rising Sun flag - last flag in the second row, and nothing I recieved quite matches it, but I did get 31 pieces, and no where did the listing mention a Japanese rising sun flag, so chalk that up to misreading the scene. In fact I got 32 flags as I mentioned they threw in a brand new in package 50 star nylon flag from Heath.
     
  3. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Let's see how nice the posting controls are to me:

    Here are the next 3:
    122312 022.jpg 122312 024.jpg 122312 023.jpg

    I don't think I've quite seen that pattern snake for the First Navy Jack before - its a PermaNyl flag - that is Valley Forge, isn't it?

    Also, I tried a few times but the photo uploader and my 48 star flag pic aren't getting along, so here is the work around:
    [​IMG]
    48 Star Flag - sewn stars and stripes by Coasterville, on Flickr
    Note the big blue blotch/stain in the center of the flag is gone!
     
  4. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Try some more:

    122312 025.jpg 122312 026.jpg 122312 027.jpg

    The bad stains shown on the Culpepper flag in the auction listing are gone, and it doesn't like my Taunton Flag for some reason:

    [​IMG]
    Taunton Flag by Coasterville, on Flickr
     
  5. ColonialFlagPoles

    ColonialFlagPoles New Member

  6. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Attached Files:

  7. coasterville

    coasterville Member

  8. coasterville

    coasterville Member

  9. coasterville

    coasterville Member

  10. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    And here is where the restoration efforts didn't go so well:

    [​IMG]
    Austria Flag - cotton, sewn panels, printed eagle by Coasterville, on Flickr
    This one actually did well, there was a bad blue/red/black stain to the left of the eagle, its gone! The age stains of a cotton flag didn't come out.

    [​IMG]
    Netherlands Flag - Cotton, sewn panels by Coasterville, on Flickr
    On this one, when I got it the blue panel was so dark I couldn't tell if it was blue or black, a wash brought the blue back out. However the staining in the white panel was too far gone.

    [​IMG]
    German Imperial Flag by Coasterville, on Flickr
    I have not attempted, nbor do I intend to try to repair the rip somebody put through the imperial cross on the canton:
    [​IMG]
    German Imperial Flag - Damage to canton by Coasterville, on Flickr
    See detail above.
     
  11. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member


    I have noticed that some "navy jacks" have the logo reading , "Don't Tread on me". And some have it as, " Don't Tread Upon me".

    What's the history of the 2 differences??:confused:
    ---------------

    Looks like you got a nice addition to your collection
    !:)
     
  12. csaanv

    csaanv Member

    Hi CenterTree and welcome!
    Yes, it is a Valley Forge flag but their's was just an interpertation of that early American flag, albeit a mistaken one I believe with awful artwork as well. While there are lots of myths and speculation that surround our early American flags including the Gadsden, First Naval Jack or the Don't Tread On Me flags but the phrase/motto "DON'T TREAD ON ME" seems to be accurate as it has been handed down the years. I believe VF is the only flag company that uses the "upon" word on it's flag. It is interesting that their Gadsden flag uses the traditional Don't Tread On Me phrase. At least the snake looks a little better.

    mn1_002042.jpg
     
  13. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    I would agree with you that the Valley Forge "First Navy Jack" is a pretty bad interpretation. The snake looks nothing like anything I had ever seen.

    Oh, and I just took delivery of another big box - several world flags made of cotton that are of sewn construction, yes they may have printed some of the charges but simple stuff is sewn.

    Seeing as the major US flagmakers and I'm sure others overseas are all going to their dye process. (Which I assume means they can just keep feeding in the nylon, and just select whatever flag they are making today from a menu on the screen), I'm starting to look for the sewn panel flags as they represent an era when flagmaking was a craft. From what I can see there are some overseas flagmakers that pride themselves on still making sewn flags, with prices to match.
     
  14. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    Dave,
    I was watching that lot on eBay. You got a nice collection there. The flag of Ethiopia with the lion is especially nice.
    Nick
     
  15. csaanv

    csaanv Member

    I was a little disappointed to discover that Valley Forge probably used THE FLAG BOOK OF THE UNITED STATES by Whitney Smith as their reference for their DON'T TREAD UPON ME flag (see flag below from the book). Unfortunately, in the book he does not discuss the origin of the motto in the text (page 45) except to say it was DONT TREAD ON ME that was the motto used on the various flags. I suspect then it was probably the artist who changed the motto to DON'T TREAD UPON ME. It is hard to say exactly how much editorial control Smith had over the artist who actually drew the flag illustrations themselves. Where then did the artist get the alternate motto? I know that numerous errors have been handed down by George Henry Preble in his book: OUR FLAG. ORIGIN AND PROGRESS OF THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, with an introductory account of the symbols, standards, banners and flags of ancient and modern naitons, by G.H. Preble, U.S.N. .... However, Preble uses DONT TREAD ON ME as the correct motto and not DON'T TREAD UPON ME (see flag plate below). Just a side note, I was told by the local flag maker used by the US Navy that it is correct that the apostrophe is left off the word DONT.

    DTOM.jpg

    image.jpg
     
  16. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    Whitney worked very closely with his artists, Louis Loynes and Luciene Phillipe, when writing The Flag Book of the United States. And the version of the Navy Commander in Chief's flag that uses "UPON" comes directly from a period print of Esek Hopkins:
    Upon.jpg
    Ben Franklin's version of the snake symbolism used the wording Dont Tread ON me.



    Nick
    Columbia Maryland
     
  17. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Thanks, I had stopped trying to boast about my eBay finds, just in case there would be hard feelings with other members here who might have also been involved. I paid a tidy sum for that one, yet I feel like I got a deal. The flags came in better than excellent condition, each in a baggie, well labeled.

    The Ethiopia flag was one I couldn't tie back to a picture of the flag on FOTW. That might be a deal maker, as is the Argentina flag where the sum emblem is embroidery work, I'd been watching this for a while when it started out as a 60 some odd flag collection with a $1,000 starting bid. As sick as it sounds that might have been worth it, then he parted out the collection in 4 packs and singles. I just finally jumped in and got the 23 that were left, wish I would have started earlier, as I keep saying there really are GREAT flags.
     
  18. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    That's one of the commercial versions of the Ethiopian Imperial Flag. Here's the FOTW link:

    Imperial Ethiopia

    Nick
     
  19. coasterville

    coasterville Member

    Thanks Nick.

    This particular flag, the lion charge lacks color, but on a positive note all the lines in the charge are sewn and not printed.
     
  20. csaanv

    csaanv Member

    Thanks Nick! That explains a lot. However, in my humble opinion their interpretation of the snake on the flag does not look near as good as the current one use by Annin and others. So did Whitney feel that the "UPON" motto was original or the prevalent motto or did he just add it as a variant? In any case I am glad "DONT TREAD ON ME" is the predominant motto today. Maybe "UPON" sounded threatening back then but it just sounds too polite today, too British.
     

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