Gold fringe

Discussion in 'US Flag Specs and Design' started by onedkdoc, Apr 2, 2009.

  1. onedkdoc

    onedkdoc New Member

    I have read that nothing should be attached to the Flag.
    But I see the gold fringed flag. Is this Correct?
     
  2. fast1

    fast1 Member

    i think your thread needs to be specific. where did you see it?[​IMG]
     
  3. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    According to the United States Flag Code "The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind."

    Fringe does not come under any of those categories.

    If, on the other hand, we examine the contention that fringe is not allowed, then neither is the heading nor the grommets,nor anything else that lets you display the flag.
     
  4. ucc1-308

    ucc1-308 New Member

    you left out design.According to Army Regulations, (AR 840-10, Oct. 1, 1979.) "the Flag is trimmed on three sides with Fringe of Gold, 2 1/2 inches wide," and that, "such flags are flown indoors, ONLY in military courtrooms." And that the Gold Fringed Flag is not to be carried by anyone except units of the United States Army, and the United States Army division associations."
    THE AUTHORITY FOR FRINGE ON THE FLAG IS SPECIFIED IN ARMY REGULATIONS,
    BUT ONLY FOR THE NATIONAL (MILITARY) FLAG !

    The U.S. Attorney General has stated: "The placing of a gold fringe on the national flag, the dimensions of the flag, and the arrangements of the stars in the union are matters of detail not controlled by statute, but are within the discretion of the President as Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy. . .ancient custom sanctions the use of fringe on regimental colors and standards, but there seems to be no good reason or precedent for its use on other flags. . .the use of such a fringe is prescribed in current Army Regulations, No. 260-10." (See 34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 483 & 485) The only statute or regulation, in the United States, prescribing a yellow fringed United States flag is Army Regulation No. 260-10, making it a military flag. By Army Regulation 260-10, the gold fringe may be used only on regimental "colors," the President's flag, for military courts martial, and the flags used at military recruiting centers. "A military flag emblem of a nation, usually made of cloth and flown from a staff; FROM A MILITARY STANDPOINT flags are of two general classes...those flown from stationary masts over army posts, and those carried by troops in formation. The former are referred to by the general name of flags. The later are called colors when carried by dismounted troops. COLORS AND STANDARDS are more nearly square than flags and are made of silk, with a knotted FRINGE OF YELLOW ON THREE SIDES. . .USE OF A FLAG -- THE MOST GENERAL AND APPROPRIATE USE OF THE FLAG IS AS A NATIONAL SYMBOL OF AUTHORITY AND POWER." (National Encyclopedia, Vol. 4)
     
  5. ucc1-308

    ucc1-308 New Member

    I would have to research it for you but there is a provision for the hardware used to display the AMERICAN flag respectively. the design of the "AMERICAN" flag did not include the attachment of fringe.
     
  6. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Hi, UCC,

    Some of the information in your post about the gold fringe is not correct, especially the quotes from the Army regs and the AG. There are several other threads in the "US Flag Specs and Design" section that discuss this topic in detail. Please take a look a them and let us know if you need more information. Thanks!

    Peter Ansoff
    Forum Admin
     
  7. ucc1-308

    ucc1-308 New Member

    Thanx for the reply Mr, Peter Ansoff

    However, and I'm not trying to be rude,but I am not interested in discussion on issues that require fact. The US code I believe $176 plainly stated the desciption of additions to the American flag, other than the hardeware to display respectively. If you have the facts in ohter words authority of the issue please direct me to it. I would espeacially like to see any views of a presidential address where the Flag presenred has a gold fringed border. I am concerned foremost with accuracy,and apologize if the us army regs were not. I am going to take a closer look at them. but you haven't stated how they were in accurate,so I'm not sure what to verify. Again I apprecciate any facts that might put this ossue to rest,cause somebody needs to.
     
  8. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    I am not interested in discussion on issues that require fact.

    As I stated previously, many of the "facts" in your original email are incorrect. People have posted very similar misinformation several times here; apparently it is cut-and-pasted from the same or similar sources. The topic has been thoroughly discussed in earlier threads.

    The US code I believe $176 plainly stated the desciption of additions to the American flag, other than the hardeware to display respectively.

    The correct references are 4 USC 1 Paragraphs 3 and 8. The language in both of these sections is similar to the quote that NAVA-1974 provided in his earlier post. It speaks specifically about putting images on the flag itself. It says nothing whatsoever about fringes, or about "hardware."

    I am concerned foremost with accuracy,and apologize if the us army regs were not. I am going to take a closer look at them.

    Good. When you do, please note that your reference to AR 840-10 is wrong; the current version of that regulation was issued on 1 November 1998. I recommend that you also read Executive Order 10834 of 21 Aug 1959, the Attorney General's Opinion of 15 May 1925 (34 Ops. Atty. Gen. 483), and 4 USC Chapter 1. Your reference to AR 260-10 is not relevant; that regulation is obsolete and was replaced by AR 840-10.

    When you read these documents, you will see that many of the quotations in your original post are wrong and/or taken out of context. Also please note that Army Regulations are just that -- regulations for the Army. They do not apply to the other armed services, or to non-military organizations. The fact that AR-840 specifes fringes for indoor and parade flags does not have any bearing on what the other services do, or what non-military organizations and individuals can or cannot do.

    If you have additional questions after you have done your research, please let us know.

    Peter Ansoff
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
  9. False_Flagg

    False_Flagg New Member

    Hello fellow American Nationals, and Patriots. After reading the post, I find that ucc1-308 is correct in his use of AR840-10.

    Mr.Peter Ansoff replied to uss1-308: When you read these documents, you will see that many of the quotations in your original post are wrong and/or taken out of context. Also please note that Army Regulations are just that -- regulations for the Army. They do not apply to the other armed services, or to non-military organizations. The fact that AR-840 specifes fringes for indoor and parade flags does not have any bearing on what the other services do, or what non-military organizations and individuals can or cannot do.
    If you have additional questions after you have done your research, please let us know.

    Current info on this matter. AR240-10 became AR840-10, and was last updated in 1998, and basically says the same thing. Mr. Ansoff, please read the FULL AR840-10 in it's 82 pages. It does indeed clearly show the correct use of the US Flag from the "Office of the President of the United States" on down. The current US Flag [IS] the National Flag for the US., and ALL branches of the US armed forces DO indeed follow AR840-10. The current Flag replaced the original USA Flag design after the Civil War. You can see pictures on google of the original style US Flag that the US Coast Guard flew upon thier vessels (Research the history of the Pledge of Allegence, and you will see the ORIGINAL USA Flag), and was used up until about 1913. There IS a difference between (Notice, I said US, and USA) the two Flags. The US Flag WITH yellow fringe is in FACT a "Military Flag". 4 U.S.C. does NOT authorize a yellow fringe upon the Flag. FYI, Please read President Eisenhowers 1959 Executive Order # 10834, which was signed on 8/21/59, and was printed in the Federal Register @ F.R. 6865. It states: " A miltary flag [IS] a flag that (resembles) the flag of the US, except that [IT] has a Yellow Fringe Border on 3 Sides". Now when the President of the United States (Himself, a Supreme Allied 5 Star General in the US Army in time of "Declared War") says thru Executive Order, that the 3 sided yellow fringed flag [IS] a Military Flag, well then? It would seem that it does have a bearing on what other branches of the military (armed forces), and non-military organizations do. That also means, everytime you, as an American National go into ANY court in the civilian world, and there is a yellow fringed flag standing (and there ALWAYS is) in the court room, you ARE in a Military Court, in a Military Courts Martial. And you ARE under the "law of the flag".
     
  10. NAVA1974

    NAVA1974 Active Member

    The statement "a military flag has gold fringe" is NOT the same thing as saying "a flag with gold fringe is a military flag." It is analogous to saying "a war fighter has a uniform" is not the same thing as saying "a man with a uniform is a war fighter." Any flag, including civilian flags, can have a fringe. Any man, including a highway construction worker or the Maytag repair man, can have a uniform.
     
  11. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Hello, False_Flag,

    FF: ALL branches of the US armed forces DO indeed follow AR840-10.

    I would suggest that you follow your own advice, and read the documents that you are citing. AR840-10 is an Army Regulation, and it applies to the Army. This is made very clear in the regulation itself:

    "Applicability.
    This regulation applies to the Active Army, the Army National Guard of the United States and the U.S. Army Reserve."

    "1–1. Purpose
    This regulation prescribes the design, acquisition, display, disposition, and use of flags, guidons, streamers, automobile and aircraft plates, and tabards by Department of the Army (DA) organizations and personnel. It is the authority for these items and their basis of issue. It also describes the flags used by the President, Vice President, officials of the Department of Defense (DOD), and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS)."

    Of course, it covers the flags of the President, the Vice-President, and DOD officials, because the Army frequently interacts with those officials in ceremonies, parades, etc. For the same reason, the regulation discusses usage of foreign national flags and flags of international organizations such as the United Nations, NATO and the Red Cross. Each of the other armed services has its own regulations. For example, the Marine Corps Flag Manual (MCO 10520.3B) says: "a. The use of fringe on national colors or standards within the Marine Corps is prohibited." The Army uses fringes on its national colors, and the Marines don't. Army Regulations are just that -- regulations for the Army.​

    FF: The current Flag replaced the original USA Flag design after the Civil War. You can see pictures on google of the original style US Flag that the US Coast Guard flew upon thier vessels (Research the history of the Pledge of Allegence, and you will see the ORIGINAL USA Flag), and was used up until about 1913.

    This is complete nonsense. The US flag was created by the Continental Congress in 1777, and modified by Congress in 1794 and 1818. The current defintion of the flag in 4 USC 1 is the same as the 1818 Congressional resolution, except for the change to the number of stars.

    FF: Please read President Eisenhowers 1959 Executive Order # 10834, which was signed on 8/21/59, and was printed in the Federal Register @ F.R. 6865. It states: " A miltary flag [IS] a flag that (resembles) the flag of the US, except that [IT] has a Yellow Fringe Border on 3 Sides".

    Once again, I suggest that you follow your own advice, and read EO 10834. When you do, you will discover that the above quote is fake. The EO does not say anything at all about fringes.

    FF: That also means, everytime you, as an American National go into ANY court in the civilian world, and there is a yellow fringed flag standing (and there ALWAYS is) in the court room, you ARE in a Military Court, in a Military Courts Martial. And you ARE under the "law of the flag".

    This is more nonsense. Legal jurisdiction is based on law and precedent, not on mysterious symbolism.

    Peter Ansoff
     

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