order of precedence

Discussion in 'Other Flags' started by vbones11, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. vbones11

    vbones11 New Member

    I want to display the American, Navy, POW and the first Navy jack (don't tread on me)on my wall and im not sure in what order they are placed. the US flag should be higer than the others of course but should they be to the left or right of the US flag as you're looking at the wall? and i think the POW flag is supposed to be on the opposite end of the US so what order do the Navy and First Navy jack go in? any help will be greatly appreciated.
    thanks for your time
     
  2. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    I want to display the American, Navy, POW and the first Navy jack (don't tread on me)on my wall and im not sure in what order they are placed. the US flag should be higer than the others of course but should they be to the left or right of the US flag as you're looking at the wall? and i think the POW flag is supposed to be on the opposite end of the US so what order do the Navy and First Navy jack go in?

    Greetings, welcome to the forum! Here are a few thoughts on your questions:

    First of all, the US flag does not necessarily need to be higher -- it can be on the same level as the other flags. If it is, the US flag should be on the right of the others (the left as seen by a viewer facing the wall). The right is generally the place of honor -- I'm not sure why but it's a tradition that goes back at least to ancient Roman times.

    Army and Air Force regulations specify that the POW-MIA flag goes last in the order of precedence. The reasoning (I think) is that the POW-MIA flag is lower in precedence because it does not represent anything (state, branch of service, etc.) in and of itself. Jacks in general are sort of "supplements" to national ensigns, and are flown on the bows of Navy ships, so they do in a sense represent the nation. I think that I'd go for USA/FNJ/POW-MIA, in order from right to left (again, it would be left to right as seen by an observer).

    BTW, I presented a paper at the annual NAVA conference back in 2002 on the history of the First Navy Jack. My conclusion was that it probably did not exist during the Revolutionary War, but was the result of a misunderstanding by 19th century historians. The paper was published in the NAVA Journal, "Raven" in 2004.

    I hope this answers your questions.

    Peter Ansoff
     
  3. vbones11

    vbones11 New Member

    Thanks Peter! you did leave out the USN flag but from what you said im sure it will come before FNJ and after the ensign. FNJ is one of my favorite flags! again, thank you for your help, the last thing i would want is to have someone come in to inspect my barracks room and find that my flags are displayed wrong!
    sincerely,
    ETSN V.J. Rimi USN
     
  4. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    you did leave out the USN flag

    Oops -- sorry! That's what I get for responding in a hurry. I'd say it's a tossup between the FNJ and the Navy flag -- I don't think anyone will tell you you're wrong either way.

    The FNJ is a very interesting flag, even though it seems to have been a "flag that never was" from a historical standpoint. The original source for it is a British engraving of Commodore Esek Hopkins that was basically a work of fantasy -- the artist had never seen him or his flags. What's interesting is that in the engraving the motto was "Dont Tread Upon Me" not "On Me."

    I hope all's well with you over there. I've been in Naples once or twice, but spent most of the time anchored out in the harbor.

    Peter A.
     
  5. namvet

    namvet New Member

    here it is.... us flag, pow/mia flag, state flag, city flag, street flag. when the pow/mia flag is flown it is flown directly below the us flag, period.
     
  6. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    here it is.... us flag, pow/mia flag, state flag

    Sorry, but this is not correct. Per military regulations, the state and territorial flags have precedence over the POW/MIA flag. The relevant US Army regulation (AR 840-10) places state and territorial flags after the US flag, foreign national flags, and the flag of the President of the US, and before the service flags, but does not assign any precedence to the POW/MIA flag. The Air Force (AFI34-1201) specifies a similar order of precedence, and states explicitly that "There is no precedence for the POW/MIA flag. It shall always be displayed in a location subordinate to all other flags." (The Marine Corps Flag Manual (MCO P10520.3B) does not address the precedence of either state flags or the POW/MIA flag.)

    These regulations apply only to the respective military services, of course. The chapter of the US Code that deals with display of the POW/MIA flag (Title 36 para 902) does not mention the precedence issue, and neither does the Flag Code, which is the guideline for civilian usage of the US flag. Civilian organizations, of course, are free to adopt their own regulations.

    Peter Ansoff
     
  7. namvet

    namvet New Member

    if you will pull up the wed site for displaying the pow/mia flag you will see and read that it is to be flown under the us flag if on one pole. i don't have the web site handy at this time. also it is the only flag that can ever be flown over the ritundra in dc other than the us flag. i will send you the web site in a day or two. thanks for the comment.
     
  8. hi there.
    i have to agree with Peter on this one.

    it WOULD fly under the USA flag if on one pole.... but only if there was no other flag on that pole also ie a state flag

    lets see your source and we can check it- it is not right though if its telling people to place the pow/mia flag over a state flag
     
  9. ahh - peter... i found the site i think namvet might be talking about

    AII POW-MIA - Histories - POW-MIA Flag

    this site does claim that the Pow/mia flag should go below to US flag and above any state flag....

    but that just doesnt sound correct to me.... the pow/mia should be going BELOW the state flag

    your thoughts?
     
  10. namvet

    namvet New Member

    here it is i think. go to search and type in ..... flying the pow/mia flag. go to the 2nd or 3rd link ,the one that says... the pow/mia flag and read. it should aldo tell that there is an update 1/3/08. thanks
     
  11. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Hi, again!

    I've seen this language on several web sites that deal with the POW/MIA flag:

    Prisoners of War and those Missing in Action come from every state, thus the POW/MIA flag has precedence over state flags. The following guidelines should be followed in flying the POW/MIA flag:

    If flying the flag from ONE FLAG POLE, the POW/MIA flag is flown directly below the National Colors. . . .

    I don't know who originally wrote this language. However, the statement that the POW/MIA flag has precedence over state flags not correct according to US military regulations -- they are clear that state flags take precedence over the POW/MIA flag. (See my previous post for the references.) According to military precedence, the order should be US flag, state flag, POW/MIA flag if they are all on the same pole. ​

    Civilians don't have to follow military regulations, and non-military organizations are free to make up their own rules. However, one would think that they would want to follow military regs on a matter of this sort.​

    Peter Ansoff​
     
  12. namvet

    namvet New Member

    thank you gentlemen, have a lovely day, and by trhe way what are your locations? iam in south central tennessee.
     
  13. well firstly.... i am a female ! :D

    im 23 years old from England
     
  14. YCHistorian

    YCHistorian New Member

    ==================================================
    Peter,

    I would really like to read your paper. Do you have an electronic copy (PDF) that you can email to me? Alternatively, a hard copy would suffice. I checked the NAVA website and it's not online. Thanks!
    -YC
     
  15. dkimmel

    dkimmel New Member

    While searching for the correct order to display a series of flags, I found this thread. I also found the following site: Military Flags (U.S.)

    It refers to a House Resolution 1119 from 1998 that mandates the display of the POW flag between the US colors and a state flag, when flown from the same staff.

    However, I am still uncertain of how to properly honor my country, POWs, my state, a local Army Reserve battalion, and my branch of service (USAF) on one staff.

    If I have all the facts straight, it should be US, POW, IL, USA, USAF. Normally, it would not be necessary to create such a display but I am participating in a parade to honor a returning reserve unit and wish to appropriately honor and represent all.

    An e-mail response to this dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

    dkpkimmel@gmail.com

    Thank you,

    David Kimmel, TSG Retired, USAF
     
  16. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Greetings, David; welcome to the forum!

    It refers to a House Resolution 1119 from 1998 that mandates the display of the POW flag between the US colors and a state flag, when flown from the same staff.

    This is a tricky one. That language is from the House version of the 1998 National Defense Authorization Act. However, the version of the NDAA that was actually signed into law (PL 105-85, of 18 Nov 97), did not include the "Protocol" section from the House version, or any other guidance on the precedence of the POW/MIA flag. The current section of the US Code that deals with the POW/MIA flag (36 USC Subtitle IA section 902), does not address the precedence of the POW/MIA flag either.

    (For what it's worth, that original House language did not make too much sense. It only addressed display of the POW/MIA flag at certain specific federal installations. State flags are not usually displayed at such locations anyway).

    Fortunately, however, the issue is addressed in military regulations. The US Air Force Protocol Manual (AFI 34-1201) gives a detailed breakdown of flag precedence in paragraph 2.11. Based on this reference, the order of your display should be US flag, state flag, Army flag, USAF flag, POW/MIA flag. Subpar 2.11.10 states specifically that "The POW/MIA flag will always be last in any flag display."

    I'm assuming here that the Army flag in your display is the Department of the Army flag, rather than the flag of the Reserve Battalion that you are honoring. If it's the battalion flag, then it should come after the USAF flag and before the POW/MIA flag.

    I hope this clears things up. Again, welcome aboard!

    Peter Ansoff
     

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