Two Flags SAme Pole

Discussion in 'US Flag Display' started by hav3355, Aug 26, 2008.

  1. hav3355

    hav3355 New Member

    I went to my sons school for the annual flag raising ceremony. The cub scouts did a great job. Old Glory went up first, then Texas State flag below US flag. No problem so far. Then, I noticed that Texas flag was larger than the US flag. Is this proper etiquette? Can anyone direct me to code that this might fall under?

    Thanks,
    Greg Havlin
     
  2. PRGringo

    PRGringo Member

    [​IMG] That doesn't surprise me! This is a real technicality. As far as I know, they are ok but, it is more pleasing to the eye to see them both the same size. We are talking 'bout Texas though! Don't mess....[​IMG]
     
  3. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    I don't think that there is any specific mention in the flag code about this, but it's commonsensical custom that a state flag should not be larger than the national flag.

    Similarly, when the flags of different nations are displayed together, they should be the same size. This can pose a problem, because the official proportions of national flags vary from nation to nation. For example, Canada's are 1:2, while Russia's are 2:3. If the Canadian and Russian flags are the same length, the Canadian flag will appear smaller because it is narrower in proportion to its length.

    Peter Ansoff
     
  4. VPNNM

    VPNNM New Member

    ....what about the size of a military flag when it is flown below the US flag on the same pole??
     
  5. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

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    Greetings, VPNNM ! :D

    Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site Forums !


    I would assume that in a similar civilian situation (substituting a Military flag for a State flag), Peter Ansoff's advice (as given above) would be pretty much the same as that for a "State" flag. The U.S. Flag Code is, more or less, for civilian use and guidance. It is THIS code the Mr. Ansoff is referring to.

    My personal feeling is that ANY flag flown under the U.S. Flag on the same pole & halyard should be the same size OR no more than the next size smaller as the National Flag. Some "common" flag sizes are: 2'x3', 2.5'x4', 3'x5', 4'x6', 5'x8', 5'x9.5', 6'x10', 8'x12', 10'x19', etc.

    IF the "State" or "Military" flag is only the next size LARGER than the U.S. Flag, then I'd say it's a matter of personal choice (your call). BUT..... IF it's two or more sizes larger, then just fly the U.S. Flag all by itself.


    If it is a "military" situation, then I would assume that the particular branch of service in question would have their own "Flag Code" to offer guidance. I don't know if ALL the Military Services have their own "Flag Codes", but Peter Ansoff has quoted from both the Army and Navy regulations. So I assume at least those two have their own "Flag Codes".

    Perhaps Peter will check his copies and see if anything applies ???


    Thank you for bringing your Flag-related question to our Forums !!!


    Robin Hickman
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  6. VPNNM

    VPNNM New Member

    Thanks for the welcoming response! I ask because I am in the process of ordering a residential flag pole for outside of our rural home. I'm getting a 30 foot pole because it will be set directly in front of some very tall mature douglas fir trees. I think a 20 foot pole would look whimpy in this particular setting. I want it to look majestic and proud. The pole comes with a 4'X6' US flag and I was wonder what size US Navy flag to order. Thanks for your help.
    Kathy VPNNM (VeryProudNavyNukeMom)
     
  7. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

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    Hello, Kathy (VPNNM) ! :D

    I hope you don't mind my asking, but, what part of "rural" Oregon do you live in ??? I live in the "rural" part of Oregon known as "Eugene".


    A 30' flagpole should do quite nicely!

    As you've probably already learned, but just in case you haven't, there is a "rule of thumb" recommendation when it comes to the heights of flagpoles and the corresponding sizes of Flags to fly from them.

    The height of the flagpole should be between three to four times the length of the Flag. Or, to put it more properly, the length of the Flag should be between 1/4 to 1/3 the height of the Flagpole.

    While a 4'x6' U.S. Flag might be considered a little on the "small side" of that particular "Rule of Thumb", it should be perfectly OK. Besides, larger Flags cost a LOT more and they're harder to fit into a washing machine! :eek:

    You can fly your 4'x6' U.S. Flag and right underneath it you can fly either a 4'x6' or 3'x5' U.S. Navy flag. Who knows, maybe on "Special" Flag-flying days, you'll fly a 5'x9.5' U.S. Flag and a 4'x6' Navy Flag ?!?!

    Kathy, could you do us a favor here? When you get your new flagpole all set up with the flags flying and all.... would you come back here and post some pictures of it ???

    PLEASE ? :D

    Robin Hickman
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  8. VPNNM

    VPNNM New Member

    Hello Robin. I just received my flag pole today. Forgot to ask if it was made in the USA and there is no indication on the box. Darn! I have a feeling it was not. I am now looking for a stitched/embroidered US flag made in the USA. Any suggestions on a brand that meets this criteria?

    BTW, I grew up in Eugene and now live east of Corvallis (go Beavs!). I developed a renewed interest in the US flag after my son joined the Navy. I am retired Navy and own a beautiful US flag, a gift from the fed govt. It's an odd size (approx 3"6"X 6'9") but would probably be a good size for my 30 foot pole. It is very sentimental to me and I'm torn between keeping it in excellent condition (by not flying it) or flying it and being OK with it beginning to deteriorate over time.

    I certainly will post pictures when everything is in place!

    thanks for your interest in this forum and sharing your knowledge.
    Kathy, VPNNM
     
  9. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

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    Welcome Back, VPNNM (Kathy) !!! :D


    SAVE your Special "G.I." (Government Issued) Flag for "special" occasions !


    There are a number of American flag manufacturers that make American Flags. Most of them you've probably never heard of (and that's okay). However, if you want to be absolutely 100% SURE that your new American Flag is 100% American made, then you'll want a Flag that has been manufactured by a member of the "Flag Manufacturers Association of America" (FMAA).

    There are currently FOUR (4) major flag manufacturers who are members of FMAA :

    Annin & Co.
    C.F. Flag
    J.C. Schultz Enterprises, Inc. (The Flag Source)
    Valley Forge Flag

    If you want to find out more about the FMAA and their "Made In the USA" certification process, you can visit their website at :
    http://www.fmaa-usa.com/

    Of those four, the two that are probably best known by retail customers (like you and me) are Annin and Valley Forge.

    I don't know about "up there" in your neck of the woods, but down around here in the Eugene-Springfield area all three of our area's Wal*Mart stores carry Annin & Co. Flags. GOOD prices too !!! :D

    If I remember correctly (and that's a big "IF"!), our Wal*Mart has the 3'x5' "Republic" model (70/30 Polyester-Cotton blend) for about $8.00. They also carry the more popular (and durable) nylon "Nyl-Glo" flags too. The 3'x5' Nyl-Glo runs about $19.00, and the 4'x6' costs about $26.00.

    My previous advice (in an earlier entry in this thread) about Flag sizes, still stands.


    Please let us know how everything turns out with your new flagpole and flags and such! And, as always, pictures ARE appreciated !!!



    GO DUCKS !!! :D



    Robin Hickman
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  10. VPNNM

    VPNNM New Member

    Robin, thanks for the info on USA made flags. Just ordered a 4X6 Annin US flag through costco.com for only $24.99 (free shipping). My husband will hang the flimsy printed flag that came with the pole on the wall in his wood shop.

    Ok, have another question. With all the rain/drizzle that we get in Oregon, do you hang your flag on the rainy days? I know it needs a light if it stays
    up day and night, but what about being in a constant rain for days on end?

    Kathy, VPNNM and BeaverBeliever
     
  11. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Kathy ! :D


    How, when, & where people choose to fly their Flags is, as always, a very personal choice.

    The Flag/Flags I choose to fly out in front of my house are flown mainly during daylight hours only. They are 3'x5' flags mounted on 8' wood poles that are held in place (upright) by either a pipe in the ground or 60 Lb. concrete blocks on the porch pad. I have posted photos around this site showing what they look like. Here's one from Independence Day, 2009.

    July 4th, 2009 : THREE FLAGS :
    (2009-07-04)-MiddleFlagForGreengo.JPG


    As for flying my Flag on rainy days: It just depends on how "bad" the weather is supposed to be on any given day. Almost all the Flags that I have are lightweight printed/dyed Flags of either polyester or nylon material. Because they are lightweight (light duty) and made of a synthetic material, they dry out very quickly, BUT are more suseptible to wind damage. I am less worried about the rain than I am about the wind.

    IF the weather forecast calls for LIGHT wind and/or rain, I'll fly my Flag(s) during the day. If the Flag(s) is still a little WET when I "strike" it in the late afternoon or early evening, I'll hang it up (unfurled) overnight in the garage. If the Flag(s) is DRY at the end of the day, then I'll roll it up on the pole ("furl" it) and put it just inside the front door.

    IF the weather forecast calls for HEAVY wind/rain, the Flag(s) stay nice and dry INDOORS.

    While my Flags are "Light Duty" and not suitable for all weather conditions, the ones YOU'LL be flying will be "Heavy Duty" ALL-WEATHER Flags.

    So what does the "Flag Code" say about displaying the Flag at night or in inclement weather? Check Section 6 ("§6. Time and occasions for display") of the "Flag Code".

    In Short :

    §6. Time and occasions for display

    (a.) It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness. [Emphasis added]

    (c.) The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all-weather flag is displayed. [Emphasis added]

    A copy of the "Flag Code" can be found HERE :
    http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm


    My personal "interpretations" (short form) of those two sub-sections is as follows.

    Section 6 (a.) : "Properly Illuminated" means that a "Flag Specific" (or dedicated) light of sufficient brightness is used to illuminate the Flag. Specifically, that the light's one and only reason for being in existance is to light up that Flag during the overnight hours of darkness.
    Section 6 (c.) : "Inclement Weather" means ANY weather condition that would likely cause harm to, or loss of, the Flag. "All-Weather" means that the Flag's materials and construction are such that it can easily withstand all but the most severe of weather conditions (ie. hurricanes, tornadoes, severe ice storms, etc.).


    I hope that helps clear up a few things. If you have any other questions, all you've got to do is ask, right? :cool:


    Robin Hickman :D
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
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  12. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

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    Gee! :eek:


    It's been almost THREE (3) months since we last heard from "VPNNM" (Kathy) !!! :eek:

    I wonder how things went with her NEW Flagpole & FLAG ??? :eek:



    I sure hope VPNNM/Kathy comes back to tell us all about it and post some pictures of it too !!! :D



    Robin Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
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