We Are Under Distress

Discussion in 'US Flag Display' started by cindykohl, Jul 24, 2009.

  1. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Fellow Forum Members,

    I am not going to close this thread just yet, but I will be watching it very carefully. Several of the above posts are on the borderline of violating the rules of the forum, and I've had to delete a couple that did (in my opinion) cross the line. The appropriateness or otherwise of flying upside down flags as political statements is an interesting and topical one, but we'll have to cut it off if we can't keep the conversation civil.

    Thanks to all,

    Peter Ansoff
    Forum Admin
  2. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

    As I've written earlier in this thread and in other threads on this website, don't confuse politics with patriotism.

    Maybe I should add, "and vice versa" to my advice.

    Never confuse Politics with Patriotism nor Patriotism with Politics. Beware of those who would create political strawmen wrapped in patriotic garb. Trust not those who make political statements while wrapping themselves in the Flag to gain favor and to hide their true agenda.

    Or, as Samuel Johnson said on April 7th, 1775, almost exactly 235 years ago :

    "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." :eek: (Also written as, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.")

    What was it that Edward R. Murrow said?

    "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it."

    Adlai Stevenson on Patriotism (my favorite :D ) :

    "What do we mean by patriotism in the context of our times? I venture to suggest that what we mean is a sense of national responsibility ... a patriotism which is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."

    Carl Schurz (another favorite :D ) :

    The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country -- when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right."

    Also: "My Country! When right keep it right; when wrong, set it right!"

    G.K. Chesterson wryly observed :

    "My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."

    How about a couple from Mr. Samuel Clemens (AKA : Mark Twain) :

    Mark Twain #1 : "Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may.

    Mark Twain #2 (Seems VERY Current) : "The nation is divided, half patriots and half traitors, and no man can tell which from which."

    Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas :

    "Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us."

    But..... I digress.....

    It is my belief that this web site and these forums are dedicated to the open and honest dicussions about our National Ensign and those subjects, things, people, history connected to it. It is NOT a "political" round table, nor, dare I say it, is it necessarily a place for righteous patriotic chest-thumping.

    But, then, hey, that's just me. :cool:

    Robin Hickman
    Eugene, Oregon, USA
  3. jefftomczak

    jefftomczak New Member

    Re: We Are Under Distress!

    I too, am an honorably discharged veteran of the United States Air Force. I laid my life on the line to defend this great country and the freedoms we enjoy today. My father and uncles also served in the Air Force and Army for a total of more than 100 years of combined service. Today, I own the flag company that my father founded 25 years ago and I am in severe distress! :mad: My livelihood and my way of life is threatened. My freedom of speech is threatened. My freedom of choice is threatened and our "ship" is sinking! (Really, how many sinking ships ever took the time the lower the flag and re-hoist the flag upside-down??)

    Our flag stands for freedom and our freedoms are being taken away one-by-one. I don't see that flying the flag upside down is a racist statement, an anti-Democratic sentiment or an insult to those who have given their lives to defend this great country.

    The insult to the flag of the United States of America is illustrated by allowing the flag to be trampled upon, dragged or dropped to the ground (intentionally) and burned in protest (rather than for proper retirement). The scary part is that people who do these ^ things ^, are the ones getting the protections. If you dare challenge a flag-burning protester, you are labeled a racist or hate-monger. If you challenge the government is an orderly, peaceful fashion, you are labeled a right-wing extremist.

    Wake up America! The spirit and symbolism of the greatest country on Earth is embodied in the American Flag and it is taking a back seat to political correctness. Where is the Pledge of Allegiance? When is the Commander in Chief going to pledge his allegiance to our country and NOT China?

    Citizens of the United States of America...do what you want with the flag. Fly it upside-down, fly it right-side up, fly it while you still can (otherwise we might be flying under a different flag one of these days). Did you ever stop to think what would happen if we didn't stand up and fight for our country and our freedom? We might be flying a German Flag...a Russian Flag... a Japanese Flag or...???


    A Right-Wing (Conservative), Extremist (Honorably Discharged, Gun-Toting Veteran), Religious Nut (Christian), Entrepreneur (Hard-working, self-employed-so-others can be on welfare), patriotic American!
  4. 76patriot

    76patriot New Member

    I hope the administrator does not continue to "censor" free speech on this US flag website...how ironic. I see some continue to self-righteously bloviate about the flag and how it is somehow separate from politics....you are entitle to your opinion as misguided as it is.

    The one quotation that trumps them all....Declaration of Independence...Governments are instituted among Men; deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends; it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it; and to institute new Government.

    Watch the national debt clock "usdebtclock.org" and tell me we are not in big trouble as a nation. It is OK to fly your flag upside down....we are under great distress!
  5. Greengo

    Greengo Member

    I may be misguided according to you, but I will not change my mind. In the town where I live you would be strung up for disrespecting the flag. You are in a minority with your thinking. Live the way you want. I wake up with a "CLEAN" conscience in the mornings. I don't like the way things are going any better than you. I just happen to keep the flag out of it. To me, you are Un-American in your flying the flag upside down. By the way, that is my opinion, as misguided as you may think it is.
  6. Robin Hickman

    Robin Hickman Well-Known Member

  7. 76patriot

    76patriot New Member

    In your "opinion" it is disrespectful. No one told you you had to fly your flag upside down, sideways or any other way. We are in the USA....for now...you are free to express your opinion and act accordingly.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2010
  8. Greengo

    Greengo Member

    I didn't get into this post for an argument. You have your "opinion", I have mine.

    Thank God we live in a "FREE" country where the guided or misguided can speak their mind.

    I am 63 years old. I was born and raised in the USA. I intend to stay here till the day I die.

    Do what you want. I have won nothing, you have won nothing.

    I'll go away. Why don't you do the same. I am sure that the folks on this forum are tired of hearing from both of use.

    Nuff said.

  9. 76patriot

    76patriot New Member

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it...Mark Twain.
  10. pohenn

    pohenn New Member


    AMEN, Period.
  11. PRGringo

    PRGringo Member

    I really despise politics on forums that are not political forums. Cindykohl, whoever she is, joins here and make ONE post that has NOTHING to do with purpose of this forum.

    While this post was allowed to remain is not my perogative to question but I can choose to not participate when a forum goes wrong, IMHO.

    Whatever. Fly your flags upside down, inside out, and use them as you wish.

    I just wanted to be able to discuss flags, not politics.
  12. Robersabel

    Robersabel New Member

    >You have correctly noted that flying the flag of the United States upside down has become a symbol of protest.

    Does the following allow me to display the flag upside down?

    This Memorial Day weekend I am experiencing a tradition in jeopardy. The tradition of honoring our veterans that fought, and those died for our country (including WWII) so we may enjoy freedom, today. The tradition is being threatened by the recent passing of Amendment 200 (40) to HR 5136. “Would expand the eligibility for the Army Combat Action Badge to those soldiers that served during the dates ranging from December 7, 1941, to September 18, 2001.”

    I am referring to an unknown number, perhaps thousands of combat veterans that participated in the battles of Bataan, Corregidor, and the Bulge that have yet to be recognized for their service. They fought along side of recipients of the Bronze Star Medal, and Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB). Please note: All recipients of the CIB during WWII are entitled to the Bronze Star Medal. This Amendment will take precedence over at least three War Department Circulars effective during WWII that identify circumstances for combat veterans to qualify the CIB. It will mean future requests by many veterans, and next of kin of veterans will be authorized the Army Combat Action Badge, and does not warrant the Bronze Star Medal. This is not justice since they were assigned to like units, and fought the same battle(s), meeting circumstances listed in current WD Circular(s) qualifying the recognition as previous recipients. I urge the Senate to honor such veterans by preventing such an Amendment to become law. At least prevent the expansion involving veterans of WWII. Please!

  13. Peter Ansoff

    Peter Ansoff USA Flag Site Admin

    Hello, Robert, welcome to the forum!

    The tradition is being threatened by the recent passing of Amendment 200 (40) to HR 5136. “Would expand the eligibility for the Army Combat Action Badge to those soldiers that served during the dates ranging from December 7, 1941, to September 18, 2001.â€￾

    I'm not sure I understand your point here. The CAB was created to honor Army personnel who were not eligible for the Combat Infantryman Badge because they served in non-infantry arms (armor, engineers, etc.). Eligibility for the CIB dates back to 7 Dec 1941, while the current CAB eligibility goes back only to 18 Dec 2001. The intent of the amendment is to give non-infantry combat veterans who served prior to 2001 the same recognition as their infantry counterparts.

    All recipients of the CIB during WWII are entitled to the Bronze Star Medal.

    I don't think that this is technically the case. Eligibility for the Bronze Star is based on acts of heroism, while the CIB rules refer specificially to engagement in combat.

    By the way, there appears to be a typo in the Army Regulation (AR 600-8-22) that defines the eligbility for these awards. Para 8-8 c(4) says that one of the criteria for the CAB is "Solider must be assigned or attached to a unit that would qualify the Soldier for the CIB/CMB." The whole intent of the CAB was to recognize Soldiers who did *not* qualify for the CIB/CMB. Hopefully the Army will correct this in the next revision of the AR.

    Peter Ansoff
  14. majorhitt

    majorhitt New Member

    Flying the flag upside down in this time of unrest, is not what the intent of doing so was for. I have a lot of respect for the flag, just like many if not all of you. As previously mentioned, the flag flown upside down for a sinking ship, is what it should be used for. I teach flag etiquette for several scout troops, Boy Scout and Girl Scouts. We had an event at our county prison. Someone in the morning doing their normal daily task of raising the flag never took notice how it went up the pole. A few hours later the SWAT team rushed in to find nothing wrong. It's a good thing someone knew what an upside down flag means. This could be like crying wolf. Let's use the flag for what it is meant for. I'm sure there's a better way to let others know that the country is under distress. What that may be, I don't know.

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