U.S.M.C./ U.S. Navy Flag

[Josey]

Here are a few pics of another one of my WW2 flags that I briefly mentioned in the "Gold Star Flag" thread.

Because I know very little about flags I wanted to get your input on this one. I was told by a fellow militaria collector that this flag belonged to a USMC or Navy unit because they are the only ones to fly flags with ropes to attach them to halyards. Do you know if this is correct?

Also, since this flag has a manufacturers label on it maybe someone will be able to date it. To be sure it is indeed from the WW2 era.

This flag is pristine and would easily rate a 10.

Josey

[Robin Hickman]

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Hi, Josey !


NICE Flag !


At this point in my "Flag Career" I can tell you with all certainty that I do NOT know if the USN/USMC were the only ones that flew Flags with ropes on them (rather than grommets, etc.).

I can, however, state with some small measure of certainty that that particular Flag/Ensign is probably one intended for civilian use and NOT an "official" U.S. Flag of the USN. I say that because of the stamp on the canvas header stating that the Flag's size is 5'x8'. That is NOT a USN "regulation" size Flag.

One of the things that I've learned HERE is that the U.S. Navy has their own sizing chart and ALL of the sizes listed use the Government Specified "Hoist-To-Fly" ratio of 1.0 : 1.9. In fact the Navy numbers the different sizes.

I got this simple sizing chart from :

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq129-1.htm


Flag Size Number = Hoist x Fly Length (in feet)

Size 1 = 20.00' x 38.00'
Size 2 = 19.00' x 36.10'
Size 3 = 14.35' x 27.27'
Size 4 = 12.19' x 23.16'
Size 5 = 10.00' x 19.00'
Size 6 = 8.94' x 16.99'
Size 7 = 5.14' x 9.77'
Size 8 = 5.00' x 9.50'
Size 9 = 3.52' x 6.69'
Size 10 = 2.90' x 5.51'
Size 11 = 2.37' x 4.50'
Size 12 = 1.31' x 2.49'



Sure is a NICE Flag, isn't it ???


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Robin Hickman]

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Hello, again, Josey !


In regards to your USN/USMC U.S. Flag, I almost forgot to ADD that NYLON was patented early in 1937. While that is "pre-War", some of what I've learned about nylon's use in flag-making is that it really didn't come into wide-spread use until some time in the 1950's (I think).

I'm unable to tell you if "NylonWave" was a WWII era Flag material or more of a "post-war" material.


Robin Hickman
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[Josey]

Robin,

Thanks for your info. Possibly this flag was intended for civilian/commercial use but ended up in the hands of the U.S. government. Notice the U.S. stamp as well near the lable. That is a military marking. I know this flag reads nylonwave but it sure feels like it's all cotton. It must be woven into the material somehow. Another interesting flag.

Josey

[Robin Hickman]

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Hi, Josey !


QUOTE : "Notice the U.S. stamp as well near the lable. That is a military marking."


I believe that the "U.S." stamped in black ink on the header is simply identifying the kind of Flag it is. In this case, "U.S." stands for "United States" because it is a United States Flag.

If it were an Oregon State flag then it would have been stamped with something like "Oregon", "Ore. St.", or something similar. If it were a U.S. Army or Navy flag then it would have been stamped "ARMY" or "NAVY".

See?

As far as the Flag "feeling" like cotton, that is altogether likely as there has been (still is) a "blending" of materials. Recently, I saw a unique 49 Star Flag on eBay that was made of a WOOL & NYLON mix. While I have no idea what the 49 Star Flag "feels" like, in the pictures supplied it looked very much like wool.

Annin and Valley Forge both make low-end (printed) Flags that are constructed using a fabric called "PolyCotton" that is a blend of Polyester (70%) and Cotton (30%). I happen to own about about two dozen of them and they DO "look" and "feel" MUCH more like cotton than polyester!


Yes, it is a very interesting Flag. Unique, too! I don't know about anybody else, but until I saw the picture of your Flag, I'd never even HEARD of "NylonWave" !!!


Robin
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[Josey]

Robin,
Thank you for the information. Here I had assumed that the U.S. stamp indicated military use.

I am a U.S. militaria collector and am quite knowledgeable in that field and the U.S. stamp on the flag is just like the markings on WW1 - WW2 field gear, right down to the block periods. So I assumed, and well you know what they say when you assume something.

Josey

[Robin Hickman]

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Hey, Josey !


Don't worry about it !


The info that I shared with you about the U.S. Navy's ensign sizes, the use of nylon in Flags, the stamped marking of "U.S." on the Flag's header; I learned all that here on the USA-Flag-Site forums !!!

Some of the stuff I've learned here on the site about flags in general and the U.S. Flag in particular I learned because I was trying to help someone else out. In a way you might say that I sometimes "Googled" my way into a Flag Education !!!


Believe me when I tell you this, I've made some really, really BIG boo-boo's here in these Forums! All I can do then was 'fess up and do my best to learn from the experience, and try not to let it happen again.


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Josey]

You almost have to chuckle at the fact that the flag company felt the need to put a U.S. stamp on the American flag to identify it. I can see the need for it on state flags and others though.

Anyway, since this flag is not military it does not fit into my collection I will more than likely move it down the road. Would anyone be willing to put a value on it for me? I would sure appreciate it.

Josey

[Robin Hickman]

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Hi, Josey !


At this time my advice is to NOT be in a hurry to "move it down the road".

Hold on to it and start doing a little "investigating" to see what you might find out about the Flag, the manufacturer (Vincent J. Spelman & Co.), and maybe even the Flag's fabric ("NylonWave" - Does it have a U.S. Patent?).

My advice in cases like this my advice is: "When In Doubt, GOOGLE It Out".

"Vincent J. Spelman"
"Vincent J. Spelman & Company"
"Nylonwave"

The Vincent J. Spelman & Co. is known to have manufactured flags for various shipping companies, including the White Star Line (think Titanic). the United States Patent office has a least one or two patents filed by one "Vincent J. Spelman", including one for a ship's hatch cover.


If the Vincent J. Spelman & Co. is no longer in business (and it appears that that is the case) and it used to manufacture flags (which appears to be so since you have one!), and that "Nylonwave" is a not very well known flag fabric ("Google" it and this is the first page in the search results), then I'd say (even though I am NOT an "expert") that you have a unique and very rare U.S. Flag !!!


Hold on to it !!!


Robin Hickman
Eugene, Oregon, USA
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[Josey]

Robin,
Thanks for that info. I did do a web search, however it doesn't turn up very much.

It would be very cool if did turn out to be a rare flag but I am not going to hold my breath.

Again, Thank you. I appreciate your input.

Josey