[WrestlingTerp]

Okay, I can't find the answer to my questions anywhere else. Perhaps I can here!

With the passage of the legislation allowing Veterans and military members not in uniform to render the hand salute to the flag, and the start of the football season with Veterans' Day coming in November; I have some questions.

1. As a Veteran, do I remove my hat to salute? Or can I salute with a ball cap on? Or only with a military/veterans ball cap on?
2. It seemed that the intention of the change to the flag code was to allow Veterans to salute during the playing of the National Anthem. Is that a correct interpretation?

Thanks!

[Peter Ansoff]

Hello, WrestlingTerp -- welcome to the US Flag forum. Yes, we can answer your question, but there's a twist to it -- follow the bouncing ball! (-;

The short answer is that, as a Veteran not in uniform, you have two choices: 1) leave your cover on (if you're wearing one) and render the military salute, or 2) remove your cover and place it over your heart. The type of cover is irrelevant in both cases. I'll quote the actual language from the US Code in just a minute.

There's more to the story, however. There are three different sections of the US code that deal with conduct during salutes:

- Title 4, Section 1 Para 4: saluting during the pledge of allegience
- Title 4, Section 1 Para 9: saluting when the flag is raised, lowered, or passes in a parade
- Title 36, Subtitle 1 Part A Para 301: saluting during the playing of the national anthem

Originally, all three had similar wording. Essentially they said that persons in uniform give the military salute, other male citizens wearing headgear remove their covers and hold them over their hearts, and other citizens place hands over hearts. There were minor differences: for example, the pledge of allegience version made an exception for men wearing religious headgear, and the raising/lowering version specified that non-citizens should stand at attention without saluting.

Earlier this year, the code was amended by PL 110-181. Congress's intent was to allow military personel and veterans to give the military salute even if they were not in uniform. So far so good. However, what they did was to amend Title 4, Section 1, Para 9 while leaving the other two sections unchanged. As amended, Para 9 reads as follows:

". . . all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention."

However, because Congress did not change the other two sections, this new language only applies when the flag raised, lowered, or passing in review. During the playing of the national anthem and the reciting of the pledge of allegience, the old rules still technically apply. It's not clear what rules apply when the national anthem is played as the flag is raised -- the revised code actually contradicts itself. This is an absurd situation, of course. Congress obviously meant to change the rules in all three cases, but they were sloppy and didn't do it right. Until they fix it, my take would be that we should follow the new version of Section 9 in all three cases.

Notice that the new version of Section 9 also eliminates the distinction between men and women. Formerly, women civilians were supposed to leave their hats on; as revised, they're apparently supposed to remove them (unless they are military or veterans, of course). At least, that's what it seems to say -- the phrase "if applicable" is not very specific.

I hope that all makes sense . . . anyway, welcome aboard!

Peter Ansoff

[WrestlingTerp]

Peter:

Thanks, now my head hurts so much I won't be ABLE to wear a cap!!

My read on Senator Inhofe's legislation change was to allow Veterans' to salute the flag during the National Anthem as a way of showing the greater public how many people have actually served.

So at tomorrow's Terps football game I'll just render my salute; with my cap on!(?)

[Taylor Girl]

I have a question I need answered and I hope it's okay to be on this thread. Tomorrow morning we will be hosting a breakfast for Veterans in our area. The national anthem will be sung and the pledge will be recited. Which is supposed to come first? Forgive my ignorance. They're both important to me, but I want to make sure it's done right.

[american_flag_uk]

Hi taylor girl -

There's no 'wrong way round' of doing the pledge and the national anthem

If it was me I would have the pledge followed by the national anthem
simply because then you can have the veterans stand and recite the pledge then announce the national anthem, and after the music stops they can sit down again

[RabidPatriot]

I realise I am jumping into this thread late but I was wondering if this ever passed. I do not believe it ever occurred and that is a shame. This bill should continue to be pushed as it would allow members who have ever saluted the flag to be given the honor to continue to do so.

Let me know if anyone finds something saying it was actually pushed through somewhere else and I am not finding it.

RP

[RabidPatriot]

I answered my own question...H.R. 4986 [110th] was signed into law in 2008.

SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS
OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING,
OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.

Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking
‘‘all persons present’’ and all that follows through the end of the
section and inserting the following: ‘‘all persons present in uniform
should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces
H. R. 4986—137
and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render
the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag
and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or
if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and
hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens
of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct
toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at

the moment the flag passes.’’.

[Robin Hickman]

.
GREETINGS, Rabid Patriot !

Welcome to the USA-Flag-Site forums !


Congratulations on finding the answer to your own question !

The Bill was passed and signed into law back in January, 2008. It would have passed much sooner except the American Legion was against it and fought against its passage.

(Yes, you read that correctly! The American Legion was AGAINST Veterans being allowed to render a hand salute to the U.S. Flag.)


FWIW : You might want to scroll back up and re-read Peter Ansoff's post (#2 in this thread) regarding the OTHER "related" sections of the "Flag Code" that were NOT changed, and the confusion that it might cause !!!


Thank you for bringing your Flag-related question to our forums! And Thank You for letting us know that you've already found the answer to your question, too !!!

Robin Hickman
.

[RabidPatriot]

I understand why they were against it. A lot of people feel that only those still in uniform should be able to honor the flag. Its a privledge that comes with continuing to serve.

However, I think it would be good to amend it to those that served at any time. A lot of people in our country are forgetting what it is to love this place even with her flaws and problems.

Seeing it honored in greater numbers would mean a lot to those that served.

[Robin Hickman]

.
Hey, Rabid Patriot !


I go for a walk once or twice a day, almost every day. As I'm walking along I render the hand salute to every American Flag that I see as I pass by it.

If "they" (the "powers that be") were to rescind the Veterans' right to render the hand salute to the flag, I'd do it anyway !!!

( Must be the "rebel" in me ! )


Robin Hickman
.