Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
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I have been collecting flags for nearly 40 years now and have never ever seen a 13-star, 13-stripe flag conforming to The Flag Resolution that could positively be identified with ...
Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
I have been collecting flags for nearly 40 years now and have never ever seen a 13-star, 13-stripe flag conforming to The Flag Resolution that could positively be identified with the time period 1777-1795 when they were the official flag of the United States of America. The silken Schuyler flag, and the wool bunting Brandywine flag, both in Philly, are probably 18th C vintage, but the Schuyler flag is of the eagle-in-the-canton design and the shield has 16 stripes, if I recall correctly, dating it to the late 1790's, and the Brandywine flag is red with a red/white stars and stripes canton. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has the "Fort Independence Flag" in the 4-5-4 star pattern that they claim flew over the fort in the early days of our country's independence, but it is the size of a US Navy Boat flag of the mid 19th C, and I wouldn't bet my reputation on it's being an 18th c relic. The New London, CT, historical society has a silk 13 star flag but there's no provenance showing it existed in the 18th C.
I am fortunate to own a half-dozen antique 13 star flags myself, but the oldest is clearly no earlier than the 1840's time frame. So, my challenge to the USA flags forum: Where is the oldest USA flag in existence? (the oldest flag IN THE USA in existence is probably the Bedford flag, supposedly carried at the battle of Concord on 19 April 1775, but it was a militia flag and not a stars and stripes.)
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
A quick Google search for, "Oldest American Flag", brought up an interesting Google Books result for Page 33 of the book, "Stars & Stripes Forever: The History, Stories, and Memories of Our American Flag" By Richard H. Schneider, Dick Schneider.
The author claims that when he called and talked to the curator (Mr. Chris Fox) of the Fort Ticonderoga Museum (where the "Schuyler Flag" was supposedly located) about the "Schuyler Flag", he was told that they "Schuyler Flag" was a "Myth".
Gee! I don't know WHO to trust anymore!
On a LESS serious note: I, Robin Hickman, just started a totally UN-sustantiated and UN-founded rumor out on the internet that the earliest known and oldest official and authentic Flag of the United States of America was buried with Betsy Ross after she passed away! Really! I swear to God that that rumor is totally, 100%, UN-substantiated and UN-founded!
On a MORE serious note: I suppose that there are a number of "authentic" early American Flags in existence. I don't know if there is any "real" good way to figure out which one is the oldest. Each Flag's claim to be the "oldest" (or "earliest") would have to be based on its "provenance". It is my belief (an un-supported "hunch", actually) that not all "provenances" are created equal.
Finally, I think that this thread will, hopefully, turn into one of the more interesting, entertaining, and informative threads in these forums!
Robin Hickman
"All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good Men To Stand By And Do Nothing"
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
Sorry for the confusion but I meant the "Schuyler Flag" not the "Fort Schuyler Flag." Please see PDF Page 18 of 80 in Grace Rogers Cooper's book "Thirteen Star Flags - Keys to Identification" where Grace says that the flag may be the oldest known with 13 stars and 13 stripes. http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancon.../SSHT-0021.pdf
However, as I noted above, it is a silk Eagle in the Canton color, not a plain old wool bunting stars-n-stripes.
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
Lemme see here...
My Mother's maiden name was Fowle. According to UN-substantiated Fowle Family rumors, Great-Great-Great Grandfather Jonathan Fowle made an American Flag by hand and in 1781 presented it to a harbor Fort somewhere in New England that flew it and after the Revolutionary War, an English man-of-war rendered it a 13 gun salute. IF it's still around, maybe it is the "oldest"? Nawwwwwww.......
Robin
"All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good Men To Stand By And Do Nothing"
I saw that flag at the Massachusetts state house in the mid 1970s before it was removed from display, so 'yes' it still exists, and it certainly is old, but without a forensic fabric analysis I can't say that the actual relic flag is any older than the mid 19'th century Navy Boat Flags with 13 stars and 13 stripes.
Nick
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
Thank You, NAVA1974 !
AND...
Thank You, NAVA1974 !!
I appreciate your efforts to help "educate" me regarding the history and antiquity of the American Flag!
I put Mr. Loeser's Flags page in my "Favorites" folder. Also, I bookmarked the "Terwilliger Collection" of the Mastai's flags.
I can NOT verify anything from the Fowle side of the family as they have all passed away and I do not believe there were any written papers left behind (Flag-related or otherwise). I used a three-day FREE pass on Ancestry.com to trace my mother's Father (my Grandfather) back to Wisconsin and Iowa. And, IF I remember correctly, I was able to trace my Great-Grandfather Fowle back to New York (I think). I was trying to cover an awful lot of unknown ground back then in those three days so I'm not very sure about who & when. I always thought that the "Fowle Flag" story (what little I remembered of it) was kind of "neat", but I was just a kid then. There is NO WAY on God's green Earth that I could tell you what the Flag looked (or looks) like, as I'd never seen a picture of it. In other words, I am a totally UN-reliable "witness", or maybe I'm a "witless witness"?
As to whether the "Fowle", or as it is better known, "Fort Independence" Flag is the "oldest" "Stars & Stripes" type of American Flag, I couldn't tell you. As far as I know there is no "certain" scientific or forensic way of dating a Flag to a specific year. I think everything back then was pretty much hand-spun, hand-woven, hand-sewn, and "hand" everything else.
Anyway, Thank You, again, for helping to educate me regarding the early history (and maybe, "mythology") of the American Flag !!!
I hope others are learning from this thread TOO !!
Robin Hickman
"All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good Men To Stand By And Do Nothing"
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
I know that this is "off-subject" and I apologize for it !
Since I couldn't quite remember what I'd found out about the "Fowle" side of my family and it started "bugging" me, I decided to try to figure it out.!
It's been quite awhile since I did the 3-day free pass thing on Ancestry.com, and I did quite remember my "Fowle" family discoveries correctly. Of course, I'm not even very sure of my "detective" skills as I know (or knew) absolutely NOTHING about genealogy.
I went to Ancestry.com to check the family tree that I had constructed a few years ago. It took me awhile to access it because I'd forgotten my "Log-In" name and/or password!
Anyway, Here's what I found (right & wrong) "
Grandfather Leonard I. Fowle : born 1884 in Iowa.
Great-Grandfather Leonard I. Fowle : born 1844 in Wisconsin.
G-G-Grandfather Samuel Fowle : born 1801 in Massachusetts.
I wish I'd been able to go farther back and in more detail regarding my entire family tree, but I didn't know what I was doing and I only had three FREE days to do it in!
Sorry for going "off-subject".
FWIW : I was able to maybe "clear up" my memory a little AND I've been able to remember my log-in name & PW at Ancestry.com !!!
Robin "Who, Me?" Hickman
"All That Is Needed For Evil To Triumph Is For Good Men To Stand By And Do Nothing"
Re: Where is the oldest authentic 13-star and stripes flag?
Robin,
You said "G-G-Grandfather Samuel Fowle : born 1801 in Massachusetts." Well that certainly places your branch of the Fowle family in the right state at the right time, since G-G-G-Grandmother Fowle was VERY likely to be there at the same time Samuel was born!And maybe even a little before that. Interesting info.
Nick "genealogical records were probably purged by Stalin" Artimovich
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