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further more in European warefare the "flag" or colours represented the country on monarch that you fight for, and to loose them to the enemy would be a disgrace. The ...
  1. #11
    Gomac is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    further more in European warefare the "flag" or colours represented the country on monarch that you fight for, and to loose them to the enemy would be a disgrace. The American revolutionaries fought under the flag of the East India Company, like the soldiers of the East India company in India. The implication being American revolutionaries were fighting for the East India Company under the Grand Union Flag

  2. #12
    Peter Ansoff is offline USA Flag Site Admin
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    Greetings, Gomac -- welcome to the Forum!

    The implication being American revolutionaries were fighting for the East India Company under the Grand Union Flag

    Sorry, but all of this just doesn't make very much sense. The East India Company could not have acquired land in the American colonies -- its charter specifically limited its trading activities to areas east of the Cape of Good Hope. The tea shipments to Boston and the other colonies were a specific exception made by the Crown to assist the Company and provide the colonists with tea at reduced cost. The ships that brought the tea to America were not Indiamen, but ordinary merchant ships chartered for that particular voyage. Part of the motivation for the Tea Parties was that the shipments were undercutting the colonists' own smuggling activites. The Americans regarded the EIC as one of the bad guys -- later in the Revolution, they even named one of their ships after an Indian leader who was fighting against the EIC.

    Many people, including Charles Fawcett in his famous 1937 article, have tried to invent a rationale for the American Revolutionaries copying the EIC flag, but none have ever really done so. If there was a relationship, it was probably just the concept of "differencing" the British Red Ensign by adding stripes. We'll never know who actually came up with the deisgn of the Continental Colors, but it was probably one of the people involved in outfitting the American squadron in Philadelphia in the fall of 1775.

    As for CaptGio's discussion about the origin of the stripes, I guess my reaction is like the folks from Missouri -- "show me!" Stripes have been used on the flags of many different nations and entities over the centuries, including England, the Netherlands, Catalonia, Bremen, Portugal, etc. etc. All this proves is that stripes are a common and highly-recognizable motif.

    Best regards,

    Peter Ansoff
    Last edited by Peter Ansoff; 06-29-2010 at 08:29 AM.
    "We live by symbols, and what shall be symbolized by any image of the sight depends upon the mind of him who sees it."
    -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

  3. #13
    Steve Mitch is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    Here's my theory, don't shoot me down guys as its only an idea.

    I'm new to the site and have read only a few posts, mainly regarding the origins of the stripes on the star spangled banner. A little know fact outside of my home town is that Washington UK (now within the city of Sunderland) is the ancestral home of the first president of the United States - George Washington.


    A quick look back in history reveals that the Washington (UK) coat of arms is made up of horizontal red and white stripes with stars along the top. Is this a coincidence?

    WashingtonAncestry

    washington website history

    Thanks for your time.

    Steve Mitch
    Washington UK

  4. #14
    Peter Ansoff is offline USA Flag Site Admin
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    Greetings, Steve! Welcome to the forum!

    The story about Washington's coat-of-arms was discussed in this earlier thread:

    Why are the stripes red

    The idea that Washington's arms were related to the design of the US flag has been around for a long time. The most complete version of the argument was in a pamphlet published by Edward Tuffley, of Northhampton, in 1883. However, his arguments (and all the others that I've heard of) are of the "could have" variety, and are unconvincing. The bottom line is that nobody has ever produced any actual evidence that the design of the US flag was influenced by Washington's arms, and it would not really have made any sense in the context of 1775-77.

    Washington's arms are familiar to anyone who lives here in the Washington DC area, because they were the basis for the flag of the District of Columbia. There's no dispute about that one!

    Best regards,

    Peter Ansoff
    "We live by symbols, and what shall be symbolized by any image of the sight depends upon the mind of him who sees it."
    -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

  5. #15
    Captgio is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    Peter,

    Do not forget the Navy squadron you mentioned, the Alfred, was purchased by CT's Silas Dean when Barry Commanded the ship after her first voyage. The Alfred, including other ships were being prepared, outfitted in New London before the ships went to Philadelphia where the US Navys 1st Admiral, Commodore and Commander in chief took command, Commodore Hopkins.

    Hopkins is my wifes direct bloodline, Peter. Do you know why he was picked as the Navys first Commander? Not because of his Brother the Governor of Rhode Island, because of the family bloodline to going to the church, head of education the 1500's at OXford. The Hopkins were the Sheriff of London, Keepers of Westminster Palace, under the king, the lord who headed all the lords council for all English Colonial Migration at the palace,which includes the British EIC migration! The same family of Hopkins at the same time was the Lord of the British Amiralty, producing several British Admirals! This is why Esek was chosen as a Commodore of the 1st US NAVY, a real slap in the royal face of other family members in England! The US NAVY historians do not teach you this history, do they?

    Commodore Hopkins had a side kick, Connecticuts, Capt. Dudley Saltonstall who took command of the Alfred in Philadelphia. Why do you think he was chosen as Captain of the 1st US NAVY SHIP? Sir Saltonstall, the family was one of the lord's of the council at Westminster under the Hopkins Rule in the late 1500's into the 1600's involving the Pilgrims migration to MASS and CT.

    The New Haven church minister Davenport, including other church leaders made a deal with one of the B-EIC Governors of India. They requested money from this man who was rich and powerful, pretty corrupt in the company, when he was a boy he and his parents moved to the MASS Bay Colony for a while, I think his mother remarried one of the founders of Harvard. The money needed in New Haven was for creating a new school, you may know of this school. Named after the British East India Company member and Governor in India, Eliu YALE. The University recieved its name from the East India Companies own, Governor Yale.
    Connect the dots from the famous Divine, William Ames who United the Dutch and English Churches to the ministers of MA/CT, Calvinism!

    Steve, many people know of Washington's family arms having the 5 pointed stars. The History of the five pointed star usage in Colony and 1st US History may now be proven that it comes from Robert Treat Paine, a signer of the Delaration of Indpendence. Two of his famous grandfathers were Major Simon Willard, who commanded the MA/CT forces in the King Philip's War, under his command was the commander of the Connecticut forces, Major Robert Treat, Paines other great grandfather. Treat became Governor of Connecticut, he was the one who refused to give up the charter when Governor Andross came to revoke MA and CT Colony Charters. When Treat was a boy he came to New England, on the same ship with SIR Richard Saltonstall, who was one of the founders/Governor of the MASS Bay Colony. Gov. Treats, personal seal, Governor seal is a heart with two arrows through the heart, above the heart is a five pointed star.

    Historians have always thought that the MASS Bay Colony or MASS State seal of 1780, depicting an Americian Indian native with a bow in hand, to the right of his head is a five pointed star. Historians messed up the history thinking the seal with the star was created in 1780, the star was added to the seal in 1776-1777 now proven as a fact. A historic cannon showing the seal with the star was found on a shipwreck, the seal is on the cannon, giving proof the seal with the star was made prior to 1780.

    The reason why these guns with this specific seal was made with the star was to symbolize the history of MASS BAY History. Specifically for matching the devices or wood carvings of the the US Navy Frigates, Hancock and Boston. This is the kicker, the ships were finished in 1776, underway before he MASS made foundry cannons were finished or completed. The British documented the Frigate Hancocks designs in Nova Scotia. The original designs exist in the British archives, the stern of the ship shows a large five pointed star next to a coiled snake.

    A famous ship model maker named "Hahn" did all the documention work and built these models showing the five pointed star. Whats the connection to Robert Treat Paine? Robert Treat Paine, member of Contiential Congress was appointed as chair person for making all CANNON in all the colonies by order of Congress. Roberts father Thomas was a minister, merchant ship owner/privateers and owned two foundries for making the first ever known cannons in the Americas.

    The five pointed star besides being English, Dutch, masonic as we know it, was first applied by these specific men in MASS John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Nathan Cushing, Thomas Cushing, specifically representing the Charter history and Connecticut not giving up the charter or freedom, prior to the American Revolution. Examine the Mass 1775 Seal before the 1780 Seal of Mass, shows the famous English patriot, during the English Revolution not giving up the Magna carta.

    A special note, Paine was also a minister bloodlined to the same ministers mentioned who were a part of founding Harvard. Paines, great grand father Major Simon Willard founded Concord. Robert Treats is also bloodlined to the Hopkins family, same line to Esek Hopkins. I think it has to do with religious leader blood lines, Eaton the minister was also a grandfather, the Hopkins grandfather line goes back to Stephan in the 1550's, the right hand man of a Cardinal of the English Church, that hopkins was placed in a prison ship, released by orders of Queen Elizabeth.

    Connecting the History of Masonic Stars, we know Washington has three five pointed stars on his family arms. Why did he use a six or eight pointed stars on his flag? We know masons use 5,6,8 pointed stars and Washington was a mason? Who was the head of all North American Mason, where was that Lodge located? Located in Boston, think these mason leaders had any say over anything, the man who swore George Washington into office Was a the cousin to the to Cushing's mentioned above.

    Going back to Major Willard, Treat, Pain, Cushing these men were also all Judges also members of courts, government. Check out the old english history "Star Chamber" Councils, connected the history of old Government, courts back to these families mentioned, Willard, Treat. The story goes the chamber was burned, said to have five pointed stars. Look up star chamber court and the purpose back in England, connect the history to the early MASS families mentioned!

  6. #16
    Peter Ansoff is offline USA Flag Site Admin
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    the Alfred, was purchased by CT's Silas Dean

    No, she was not. The Alfred was purchased by the Naval Committee of Congress for service in the Continental Navy. Silas Deane (note correct spelling) was a member of the committee. He was obviously involved in the decision to purchase her, but he did not do so himself.

    The Alfred, including other ships were being prepared, outfitted in New London before the ships went to Philadelphia

    No, they were not. The ships of the first Continental squadron were outfitted in Philadelphia, except for the Wasp and the Hornet which came from Baltimore. The squadron went to New London the Spring of 1776, when they returned from their cruise to the Bahamas.

    The US NAVY historians do not teach you this history, [about Commodore Hopkins] do they?

    No, probably because that "history" doesn't make any sense. Why would Congress care about who Hopkins' 16th century ancestors were? He was chosen because he was a prominent citizen, had naval experience as a privateer captain during the Seven Years War, and because his brother was a member of the Naval Committee and former Governor of Rhode Island.

    Why do you think [Dudley Saltonstall] was chosen as Captain of the 1st US NAVY SHIP? Sir Saltonstall, the family was one of the lord's of the council at Westminster under the Hopkins Rule in the late 1500's into the 1600's involving the Pilgrims migration to MASS and CT.

    Again, this makes no sense. Why would Congress care about Saltonstall's distant ancestry? He was probably chosen because Silas Deane, a member of the Naval Committee, was his brother-in-law.

    I won't try to untangle your speculations about the stars, except to note that the ones on Washington's arms were not actually stars in heraldic terms -- they were "mullets." "Mullet" is a corruption of the French "moulette" which is a spur-rowel -- the little jagged wheel on a horseman's spur. On coats-of-arms, mullets are sometimes depicted with a hole in the middle for the rowel shaft -- I've seen depictions of Washington's arms that show this. Mullets have been common elements of heraldic decoration since Medieval times. They are conventionally shown with five points, but not always. The number of points has no special significance -- they are still mullets.

    In heraldry, a "star" is something else altogether -- it has wavy points instead of straight ones. Nobody knows for sure why the stars on American flags ended up looking like mullets. My guess is that it was simply too difficult for flagmakers to cut out wavy stars, and they substituted straight-armed mullets because they were easier to make. That's just speculation, of course.

    Peter Ansoff
    "We live by symbols, and what shall be symbolized by any image of the sight depends upon the mind of him who sees it."
    -- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

  7. #17
    extremejm is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Why 7 Red and 6 White Stripes

    Actually I believe the reason for the first red stripe (and coincidently last) is a much simpler reason, albeit much less romantic. It was due to the fact that it is easier to see at sea with a first red strip rather than a white one.

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