[Peter Ansoff]

Hello, EEE -- welcome to the forum!

The short answer to your question is that a fringe on a US flag is not a "purposeful indicator" of anything. It has no symbolic meaning whatsoever. Its only purpose is to make the flag look attractive.

This topic has been discussed extensively here in the forum; see especially the "Why does the American flag have a gold fringe?" thread. The bottom line is that there is no law, regulation, code, or custom that says anything about the fringe having symbolic significance. This was confirmed by a 1925 Attorney General's opinion, and is also stated on the US Army Institute of Heraldry web site -- both of these are referenced elsewhere here in the forum.

I hope that this answers your questions.

Peter Ansoff

[EEE333]

Originally Posted by Peter Ansoff

The bottom line is that there is no law, regulation, code, or custom that says anything about the fringe having symbolic significance. This was confirmed by a 1925 Attorney General's opinion, and is also stated on the US Army Institute of Heraldry web site --
Peter Ansoff

Thanks Peter. That's great. I used the info you gave and I did find that the Army Regulation Code on Heraldic Activities- 840-10 specifically mentions golden yellow fringe but no matter, you've convinced me and I've made my decision.

As you know the American flag can be a touchy subject and I wanted to make sure there isn't a law or a code or whatever that mandated the yellow fringe before I moved forward. As it turns out, the "indoor" flags we are looking for a new school cost 30-50% more! The only difference was the fancy fringe.
Our school district has $40 million budget gap right in the middle of building a new school! With every purchase under scrutiny, I can save a couple hundred bucks right off the bat with this move. I'm also going to recommend this as a district wide replacement policy for the future.

I'm going to reference your website if anybody asks me questions. Thanks!

[Peter Ansoff]

Glad to help, EEE!

840-10 specifically mentions golden yellow fringe

Yes, the AR does mention that indoor and parade flags should have a fringe. However, that's an Army Regulation, and it applies only to the Army; the other services have different rules. For example, the corresponding Marine Corps directive (MCO P10520.3B) says that "The use of fringe on national colors or standards within the Marine Corps is prohibited." (emphasis added)

In any case, none of the service regulations (or any other directives) say anything about the fringe having any symbolic meaning. It's just an "honorable enrichment" to make the flag look good.

Best,

Peter Ansoff

[EEE333]

Originally Posted by Peter Ansoff

Yes, the AR does mention that indoor and parade flags should have a fringe. However, that's an Army Regulation, and it applies only to the Army; the other services have different rules.
Peter Ansoff

Thanks. That's pretty much how I am going to present it to the board.
It just boggles the mind to think how much money could be spared the public taxpayer just by using the simple standard R.W.B flag.
I was just playing with the numbers- If you add up all the public schools, cities, town, and village bldgs alone- And figure only 2 "indoor" flags at each location- Over time (retiring flags as necessary due to damage, wear, etc.) conversion to the standard no fringe RWB flag would save US taxpayers well over $10,000,000 dollars. That's right 10 million dollars of meaningless fringe! It's outrageous when you look at it in that context and that doesn't even count public courthouses, state bldgs, etc. All the flags in all the courtrooms...wow that must be many $millions more.

All I can say is that whoever had the bright idea of adding and promoting additional adornment to flags, tassels, ribbons, badges, and fringe, etc. must have been heavy in the flag manufacturing and sales industry!
Just like Hallmark and Sweetest day....just like DeBeers and diamonds. ....create a need and then be the one fill it.

Oh say can you see? Indeed!

[Peter Ansoff]

All I can say is that whoever had the bright idea of adding and promoting additional adornment to flags, tassels, ribbons, badges, and fringe, etc. must have been heavy in the flag manufacturing and sales industry!

Well, I doubt it -- fringes have been used on flags and banners since ancient Roman times. However, you raise an interesting point. People spend a lot of money on fringed flags, so they must feel that it's worth it to enhance the appearance of the national symbol.

One could take the thought a step further, and ask about the flags themselves. Flags don't really serve any concrete purpose, but we spend lots of money on them and lots of time discussing them (like in this forum, for instance!). Obviously, people feel that the symbolism of flying flags is important, and they're willing to spend their hard-earned money to do so.

Peter Ansoff

[EEE333]

Originally Posted by Peter Ansoff

Flags don't really serve any concrete purpose, but we spend lots of money on them and lots of time discussing them (like in this forum, for instance!). Obviously, people feel that the symbolism of flying flags is important, and they're willing to spend their hard-earned money to do so.
Peter Ansoff

I'm all for people spending their [own] hard earned money on superfluous embellishment. It's when these purchases are made off the backs of taxpaying citizens that such becomes frivolity AND quite frankly irresponsible.

To suggest that the flag does not serve a concrete purpose......well, I can only infer by that statement that you were taking a devil's advocate position. With all due respect Peter, that argument will fall flat every time.

Does a plain a white surrender flag fail to serve a purpose? It quickly sends a very important message.."we give up...you win!"
The American flag also sends an extremely important message that states "Where you see this flying, you see an American institution and all it stands for [insert what America means to you here]" That message is not superficial. In fact that message is so important that men in battle have dropped their weapons to ensure the flag (and its message) survives. It's so important that at one time taking out the flag mast on an enemy ship literally changed the rules of engagement. The point here is that people live and lose their lives under the messages that the flags represent. One flag has the ability to suppress, provoke, intimidate, or sooth depending on the position of the viewer.

To add additional components to a flag without carrying any additional meaning is not only pointless, but it can be argued that it is an obfuscation or alteration of that message.

So again, unless that yellow fringe (the real subject at hand) has actual significance, that of a real message, with real meaning...a meaning greater than "gee, ain't that yeller fringe purdy on our flag!" then it should be done away with.

The simple fact that people have visited this site again and again over this very subject is indicative of the confusion it creates.
The last thing we need is these uncertain times is an uncertain and unclear message. I hope you agree.

[Peter Ansoff]

Hi, EEE -- sorry for taking so long to respond!

Does a plain a white surrender flag fail to serve a purpose? It quickly sends a very important message.."we give up...you win!"

Sorry, I didn't make clear that I was talking more specifically about flags as political symbols, and about current practice rather than history. Of course, flags have historically served functional purposes, such as national identification and signalling. However, these functions are largely archaic today. It's true, for example, that the navies and merchant marines of the word still observe the protocols involving national flags and signal flags, but nowdays these are ceremonial rather than practical.

The American flag also sends an extremely important message that states "Where you see this flying, you see an American institution and all it stands for [insert what America means to you here]"

Yes, but the flag is not necessary to convey that message. Chances are that we would know that it was an American institution (government building, ship, etc.) even if the flag were not present. It's quite true that national flags have historical served the practical purpose of identification (in fact, that's what they were originally created for), but that is far less true nowdays. My point was that people are willing to spend money on flags *even though* their function is symbolic rather than practical.

In fact that message is so important that men in battle have dropped their weapons to ensure the flag (and its message) survives

Yes, and there was originally a practical reason for this: the flag was the rallying point for the unit, and loss of the flag would destroy the unit's cohesion. Again, this is no longer true -- modern military units do not fight in linear formations, and maintain their cohesion through other methods of communication. When flags are carried in combat situations today they are entirely symbolic.

So again, unless that yellow fringe (the real subject at hand) has actual significance, that of a real message, with real meaning...a meaning greater than "gee, ain't that yeller fringe purdy on our flag!" then it should be done away with.

Sez who? Fringes on flags are a proud tradition. They've been around since the founding of our country and, in fact, long before. Those regimental colors that men have "dropped their weapons" for often had fringes, and the fringes on modern flags are reminders of the valor of our ancestors. Isn't that enough "real meaning"?

The simple fact that people have visited this site again and again over this very subject is indicative of the confusion it creates.

The reason that there is so much space devoted fringes here is that a few nutty folks have invented a ridiculous fairy tale about the significance of the fringe, and keep cut-and-pasting the same drivel from a few web sites. I don't really think that there is much "confusion" involved.

The last thing we need is these uncertain times is an uncertain and unclear message.

I don't think that there is anything unclear about the message of the American flag, with or without a fringe. The fringe performs exactly the same function as the frame on a picture -- it is not part of the design itself, but it enhances the overall beauty of the object. For what it's worth, it's common for frames to cost more than the picture that they enhance.

Best regards,

Peter Ansoff

[fast1]

i feel there the flag represents only one thing in war: pride. losing it means losing ourselves, thus the importance of not letting it fall, betraying our inner selves